Re: Reality can be known?

Hi Kent-
I do not see that we disagree except that it seems that at one time you have said we cannot know reality and other times you say we can.
You say we can know things (reality?) by their relation to other things(reality of other things?).
Tell me then what the reality of a chair is because it relates to what?

I gave you all the aspects of a thing we can possibly know with our three levels of awareness and asked if you can seem more or less aspects in your view of reality but you did not answer.

doug
On Feb 5, 2008, at 7:38 AM, Kent Johnson wrote:

Hi Doug,
What was unclear to me is that you said we cannot conceive of reality and
yet the Writings say we can know reality and then you say our
understanding is limited as if to say we cannot know reality.

I agree that is the issue that is unclear between us. I have my conception
and presumably you have yours. I have stated several times that we know
things by their relations to other things, that we know things by
relationships, aspects and attributes. We cannot know their essences. I do
not know how you think we know "reality' of a thing and how that differs in
your mind from the "essence" of a thing, but you have stated several times
that we can know one but not the other. I have stated how we know reality
and that we can't know the essence, so I assume we are using the word
"essence" in nearly the same way. We are not using the word "reality" the
same way, and I have stated several times how I am using the word.

I have stated the difference as it exists in my mind several times. (We
know reality by its relations, we do not know reality by its essence.)

The only question that remains in my mind on this matter is how you can
state that we can know the reality without knowing the essence. What is the
difference? What is our disagreement?


--Kent


"Douglas McAdam" <douglasmcadam@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:aPqdnSrUOdXKgTranZ2dnUVZ_ualnZ2d@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

On Feb 2, 2008, at 9:50 AM, Kent Johnson wrote:

Hi Doug,

"So how can we say we cannot conceive of reality when the House tells us
we
can discover the realities of things?"

You have already told me you agreed that our understanding is limited. I
quoted the House saying "human understanding ... <is> limited" from the
quote you provided. How is this unclear?

--Kent

Well Kent, I don't know what to say except that we all know we cannot know
anything in the absolute and we all know this level of existence we live
in is relative existence. And I believe the Writings tell us we must
independently investigate reality, that we can know reality and that
reality has been defined for us and that we are given the perceptual
powers to face and deal intelligently with reality. But it might take
some time and a lot of quotes to present all this which I'm not sure
emails will effectively show for us. In fact I have tried to do so
several times and been met with harsh criticism before even coming to full
disclosure and so I sort of shell shocked to try again.Suffice it to say I
believe Baha'u'llah has unveiled reality in totality to us and we are
capable of perceiving, knowing and reacting to it intelligently but it
will take time for our knowledge and application of reality depends on how
spiritually developed we are. But I tend, even though recognizing our
limitations, to not be negative and be open to the idea that if He has
revealed All Truth to us, and told us how to live etc. then He will assist
us in knowing and applying such truth if we but keep our end of the
bargain and obey.

What was unclear to me is that you said we cannot conceive of reality and
yet the Writings say we can know reality and then you say our
understanding is limited as if to say we cannot know reality.

regards,
doug








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