Re: What is Blind Faith?

Hi Reed,

I don't see how you think I said that anyone's intellect is greater than
God's, or how anyone who believes in reason is his own god. It boggles my
mind that you could think I said something like that. I won't dwell on it,
but golly, can we stick to my words, please?

"Thus, in the posts above, you are setting your intellect above the
revelations of the Manifestation of God for this age"

How?

"You start with the initial premise that *you* will determine, with your
finite reason, whether *Baha'u'llah* is speaking the Truth."

Isn't that what everyone does? It is the Baha'i Faith, not the Baha'i
empirical proof. Anyone who lets someone else determine with their finite
reason what they will believe is rather foolish. And anyone who doesn't use
reason doesn't care if they are right or wrong.

The rest of this straw argument is just silly. If you think you have said
something other than a proof of how foolish I am to have said what I clearly
did not say, please make your argument again.

Thanks.

--Kent


"Reed" <reedc@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:4vGdnY9tqLeAevLanZ2dnUVZ_tyknZ2d@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Dear Kent,

This time I will step through your response, it might be easier for
both of us. See below:

On Dec 24, 7:55 am, "Kent Johnson" <k...@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Jeepers, Reed,

"However, since that person has set his own puny intellect as
superior to the Infinite Knowledge and Grace of God and His
Manifestation -- that person already has his god, and they wear the
same shoes. : )"

You got that from me saying this:

I believe, and can support with
the Writings of the Baha'i Faith, that we must base our actions on
reaso~dl
n
and not emotion or superstition.

No, Kent, I got it from you saying this:

"If our understanding of what is written is unreasonable, another
interpretation that is reasonable must be found, or we must leave our
Faith. "

and this

"We are bound to independently investigate truth. I believe that
means that
we must understand the Writings in such a way that those Writings do
not
contradict our understanding of the world around us. That, in my
opinion,
is very different from gainsaying whatever is in the Writings is true.

It is a difficult point to convey, but worth the effort if
understood. It
means that we must understand the Writings, in plain English...."

and in a different post, this:

"Not if I believe it might have some good information on it. But if I
believe it is the cause of my destruction, of course I would. " [the
reference is to a map which is an analogy to the words of
Baha'u'llah.]

and also:

"Does that make it true? Is who said it more important than what was
said? " [this refers to the Writings of the Manifestations of God.]

Thus, in the posts above, you are setting your intellect above the
revelations of the Manifestation of God for this age. You start with
the initial premise that *you* will determine, with your finite
reason, whether *Baha'u'llah* is speaking the Truth. This is blind
faith in your own acumen. You are judging Baha'u'llah, rather than
using the methods of discerning *spiritual* truth provided in the
Writings. You are trying to discern spiritual matters with the
intellect. That is the wrong tool for the job. Oh, it comes in handy
for part of the work, but most of the process of understanding God's
Truth does not require it - else only the brightest minds could truly
grasp the true things of God, which, as I mentioned earlier, has never
been the case.

It seems to me you hold the precise sort of blind faith I am talking about
,
and there is no appealing to reason with you unless I show you that the
Writings say we must use reason. For me, well, that is superfluous. If i
t
isn't reasonable then the portion of humanity that accepts it is blind and

heading down a path that leads to a cliff they will not see.

"Thus have We sent down Our verses unto one before thee, and recalled them

unto thee, in this day, that thou mayest understand, and be of them who ar
e
well assured. O thou who assumest the voice of knowledge! This Cause is to
o
evident to be obscured, and too conspicuous to be concealed. It shineth as

the sun in its meridian glory. None can deny it unless he be a hater and a

doubter." (Baha'u'llah, Epistle to the Son of the Wolf, p. 103)

This says nothing about human reason as the means of understanding
spiritual things. Try this one instead:
"3:5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and *lean not unto thine
own understanding*.
3:6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.
3:7 Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the LORD, and depart from
evil.
3:8 It shall be health to thy navel, and marrow to thy bones." (King
James Bible, Proverbs)

and this also:

"2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the
spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely
given to us of God.
2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom
teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual
things with spiritual.
2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of
God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them,
because they are spiritually discerned." (King James Bible, 1
Corinthians)

and this:

"Materialists who reason in this way, and contend that we are unable
to see the world of spirit, or to perceive the blessings of God, are
surely like the animals who have no understanding; having eyes they
see not, ears they have, but do not hear. And this lack of sight and
hearing is a proof of nothing but their own inferiority; of whom we
read in the Qur'án, 'They are men who are blind and deaf to the
Spirit.' They do not use that great gift of God, the power of the
*understanding*, by which they might see with the *eyes of the spirit,
hear with spiritual ears* and also comprehend with a Divinely
enlightened heart.

The inability of the materialistic mind to grasp the idea of the Life
Eternal is no proof of the non-existence of that life.

The comprehension of that other life depends on our spiritual birth!

My prayer for you is that your spiritual faculties and aspirations may
daily increase, and that you will never allow the material senses to
veil from your eyes the glories of the Heavenly Illumination. (Abdu'l-
Baha, Paris Talks, p. 93)

and, of course, this:

"The only true Explainer of the Book of God is the Holy Spirit, for no
two minds are alike, no two can comprehend alike, no two can speak
alike. That is to say, from the mere human standpoint of
interpretation there could be neither truth nor agreement." (Abdu'l-
Baha, The Promulgation of Universal Peace, p. 212)

not to forget this:

"Briefly: O my beloved, the melody of the divine world is sanctified
above limitation by earthly hearing and minds. How can the ant of
existence step into the court of the Adored One? Yet weak souls deny
these abstruse explanations and reject similar traditions, through
lack of understanding. Yea, only the spiritually minded can understand
this." (Compilations, Baha'i Scriptures, p. 45)

Obviously I could go on ad infinitum flinging verses, but what would
that gain us? You do not seem to accept that there is a difference
between intellectual apprehension (a wonderful thing in the material
world) and spiritual understanding.

Of course, Abdu'l-Baha wrote extensively on the intellect, knowledge and
reason:

"He is then like a body without a spirit, a lamp without the light, an eye

without the power of vision, an ear that hears no sound, a mind incapable
of
perceiving, an intellect minus the power of reason. (Abdu'l-Baha, Baha'i
World Faith - Abdu'l-Baha Section, p. 262)

My point in saying that we need to base our actions on reason is that I
think the teachings of the Baha'i Faith are eminently reasonable.
Apparently you don't.

I think the teachings of the Baha'i Faith are eminently reasonable to
a person who uses the spiritual discernment (understanding)
exemplified in my previous post by Shoghi Effendi's words (who was an
eminently reasonable person). To a person who uses only the reason of
this world, much of the Baha'i Writings is nonsense to him. Obligatory
prayers? Pushaw!

You: "Anyone who relies solely on Reason as his criteria for acknowledging
a
Manifestation of God and then uses Reason to weigh the words of that
Manifestation... should leave the "faith" he has and begin searching again
...."
(your ellipsis)

That makes sense to me, in the context in which it was written.

I can only guess that you think faith is precisely that which I call blind

faith.

Well, since you consider "blind faith" to be my belief that
Baha'u'llah's words are always true and that, if I do not understand
them, I still accept them as true; and continue to seek a better
understanding -- than yes, I would be happy to be considered blind in
my faith. I know that to truly understand spiritual things, to receive
the Truth of those things, I need to be prepared by God; to be molded,
twisted, and shaped, until I can properly receive even the tiniest
element of Truth.

For me, faith is the best guess we have, based on whatever we base anythin
g.
If we have evidence, like all kinds of data that supports the supposition
that the sun will rise tomorrow, we don't call it faith. In the case of t
he
Baha'i Faith is it a faith, based on the Word of God, that what Baha'u'lla
h
said was true, and only time will tell if that is so.

Again, you question whether what Baha'u'llah said was true. I don't. I
don't need to because we each should have a spiritual communion with
God through the Spirit of God and the Manifestations that assure us of
the truth.

It requires little time to receive assurance that what Baha'u'llah
said was true. Just begin "to know and to do" and we each see a
transformation in our relations with others that is definitely
supernatural in origin. JMHO.

We think, based on
faith, that this Baha'i Faith has teachings that will transform humanity.

So it is our Faith, the Baha'i Faith, that we need to internalize and act
in
accordance with those teachings. That is faith, in my opinion.

But I would like to hear what faith is in your opinion.

It is the essence of Becoming. We are not yet Being, but we may be
Becoming.

"The essence of faith is fewness of words and abundance of deeds; he
whose words exceed his deeds, know verily his death is better than his
life." (Baha'u'llah, Tablets of Baha'u'llah, p. 156)

"159. The principle of faith is to lessen words and to increase deeds.
He whose words exceed his acts, know verily that his nonbeing is
better than his being, and death better than his life." (Compilations,
Baha'i Scriptures, p. 158)

"Herein lies the difference: by faith is meant, first, conscious
knowledge, and second, the practise of good deeds."
(Compilations, Baha'i Scriptures, p. 460)

"In another instance His Holiness the Christ says, "Whosoever has not
received a portion of the spirit is as dead. Let the dead bury their
dead." This means that although the souls of humanity are living, yet
if they are deprived of contact with the spirit they are as dead. In
another place Christ says, "You must be baptized with the spirit."
This spirit of faith is the flame of reality, the life of humanity and
the cause of eternal illumination. It inspires man to attain the
virtues and perfections of the divine world." (Abdu'l-Baha, Divine
Philosophy, p. 122)

Actually, Kent, the book of Hebrews has quite a long section on Faith,
you might wish to examine that as well. Abraham was considered a great
man of faith because when God called him to sacrifice his son he had
prayed for for decades, Abraham did as he was bidden. That is faith.

Also you did not
answer my question:

"What is spiritual discernment, and how can I get some? Examples please."


I think I answered it pretty thoroughly (above) in this post. Also
review the Shoghi Effendi quote in my last post.

"... in fact, you mean the "Intellectual Investigation of Truth" "

I find it offensive that you tell me what I mean. It seems to me you shou
ld
ask me what I mean. I am the expert on what I mean, and, if you like, I
will let you be the expert on what you mean, and ask you, not tell you, wh
at
you mean.

I can see that you might be offended if I told you what you *think*,
but I don't understand umbrage over explicating a meaning of words
used. Since you rely solely on Reason, I am amazed you can even take
offense : ) (That is a joke) You may be the expert on what you intend
to convey, but each reader is obliged to search out the meaning of
your words. This is, after all, what this whole thread is about. One
person sees one meaning, another, another, and they both might be
right if it is a matter of spiritual truth. In this case, you are
telling me that I do not understand your words - well, actually, you
are not even saying that, you are using the old "non-denial denial". I
wonder if Baha'u'llah feels the same way?

Perhaps you should look into what a straw argument is. It is not answerin
g
a person, but instead replacing their arguments with ideas of your own tha
t
you can easily dash and attribute those faulty arguments to the other
person. It is not a good way to arrive at an understanding with others.

This seems like a strawman. You are not answering the statement above
about "Intellectual Investigation of Truth" but obfuscating with a re-
direction. Hmmm...

"Christ always spoke in parables so that his listeners would not immediate
ly
understand - with their reason "

I was under the impression that everything was understood with reason. Wh
at
other ways do we have of understanding?

Kent, if you still don't understand after all the quotes above, I can
do no more. To the Greeks, the word often translated "understanding"
meant literally, the junction of two rivers. It takes a union with the
Spirit of God to *understand* spiritual matters.


According to Abdu'l-Baha "The inner powers are also five: the common
faculty, and the powers of imagination, thought, comprehension, and memory
....
(Abdu'l-Baha, Baha'i World Faith - Abdu'l-Baha Section, p. 318)"


Those powers that come from God, such as justice, love, virtue, majesty et
c,
are not our powers. We can only reflect them if we choose to, using our
five senses and five "inner powers" to do God's Will. It is a matter of
faith that is what God wants us to do, and it is eminently reasonable.

See above.

--Kent

"Reed" <re...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message

news:jfOdnZPbKcFitvLanZ2dnUVZ_rSrnZ2d@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Kent,

I find that I agree with you regarding your first remarks. Anyone who
relies solely on Reason as his criteria for acknowledging a
Manifestation of God and then uses Reason to weigh the words of that
Manifestation... should leave the "faith" he has and begin searching
again. However, since that person has set his own puny intellect as
superior to the Infinite Knowledge and Grace of God and His
Manifestation -- that person already has his god, and they wear the
same shoes. : )

You speak of the "Independent Investigation of Truth" but, in fact,
you mean the "Intellectual Investigation of Truth" - which is an
impossibility when it comes to true spiritual reality. If we must
measure things by the intellect, then the greatest followers would be
the most learned - but that has never been the case, indeed, just the
opposite.

Christ always spoke in parables so that his listeners would not
immediately understand - with their reason - His words. He wished them
to seek the Truth the only place it can be found - in God - and not
think that a mere intellectual apprehension of words provided Truth.
Truth transcends words and Reason. As Baha'u'llah told us,
"None apprehendeth the meaning of these utterances except them whose
hearts are assured, whose souls have found favour with God, and whose
minds are detached from all else but Him. In such utterances, the
literal meaning, as generally understood by the people, is not what
hath been intended. Thus it is recorded: "Every knowledge hath seventy
meanings, of which one only is known amongst the people. And when the
Qá'im shall arise, He shall reveal unto men all that which remaineth."
He also saith: "We speak one word, and by it we intend one and seventy
meanings; each one of these meanings we can explain."" (Baha'u'llah,
sign of the intellect is contemplation and the sign of contemplation
is silence, because it is impossible for a man to do two things at one
time -- he cannot both speak and meditate.

It is an axiomatic fact that while you meditate you are speaking with
your own spirit. In that state of mind you put certain questions to
your spirit and the spirit answers: the light breaks forth and the
reality is revealed.

You cannot apply the name 'man' to any being void of this faculty of
meditation; without it he would be a mere animal, lower than the
beasts.

Through the faculty of meditation man attains to eternal life; through
it he receives the breath of the Holy Spirit -- the bestowal of the
Spirit is given in reflection and meditation.

The spirit of man is itself informed and strengthened during
meditation; through it affairs of which man knew nothing are unfolded
before his view. Through it he receives Divine inspiration, through it
he receives heavenly food.

Meditation is the key for opening the doors of mysteries. In that
state man abstracts himself: in that state man withdraws himself from
all outside objects; in that subjective mood he is immersed in the
ocean of spiritual life and can unfold the secrets of things-in-
themselves. To illustrate this, think of man as endowed with two kinds
of sight; when the power of insight is being used the outward power of
vision does not see.

This faculty of meditation frees man from the animal nature, discerns
the reality of things, puts man in touch with God.

This faculty brings forth from the invisible plane the sciences and
arts. Through the meditative faculty inventions are made possible,
colossal undertakings are carried out; through it governments can run
smoothly. Through this faculty man enters into the very Kingdom of
God.

Nevertheless some thoughts are useless to man; they are like waves
moving in the sea without result. But if the faculty of meditation is
bathed in the inner light and characterized with divine attributes,
the results will be confirmed." (Abdu'l-Baha, Paris Talks, p. 174)

IMHO, Kent, intellectual pride - setting oneself above Baha'u'llah and
assuming first that He is wrong, rather than that you are deficient in
understanding - is a good sifter for the Baha'i Faith and you do us a
service by presenting it so baldly. It is certainly something we are
all capable of and knowing it beforehand will allow us to better see
it in ourselves.

With warmest Baha'i greetings,
Reed





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