Re: Legal, religious, scientific...


"tsuki190" <tsuki190@xxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
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There have been similar posts on the Bahai-Community@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx and
the
OneCommonFaith@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx emaI lists with similar numbers.


thanks for the links! I am wonderin' if it was ol' me that posted there
years ago? <sigh> will check em out.

I think the key point was around 80-100 kya in north Africa when hss
started using
sounds symbolically and started creating tools from multiple objects
(shaped
stone points attached to spears or clubs). Search on aterian culture
for information

and thanks for this link below too. By the way, some folks (ie,
archeologists and anthropologists, etc.) think that the beginning of our
humanity coincided with the beginning of art. Like the cave paintings, and
the "venus" figures, etc.
The verdict isn't in yet, that's for sure.
warmest
chap

about one complex of these people.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aterian

Tom

On 9/19/07, Chapstick <chapstick@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

"Chapstick" <chapstick@xxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
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"Kent Johnson" <kent@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
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Last night I started reading the meat in my newest Newsweek magazine
and
came across a story which asserts that the genus Homo contained so
many
different species that it should be considered the human "family bush"
rather than a tree, but only Homo Sapien remain today.. To Baha'is,
this
begins to vindicate the religious assertion that humanity is not
descended from the apes, and may one day explain how this worked,
mechanically.

When we think of religious truth we often come across conundrums like
the
assertion that humanity did not descent from apes, and stories of Adam
and Eve, Babel, Creationism and many more. Most often we relegate
such
stories to being completely allegorical, although we don't know which
allegories precisely we should apply these stories. Not many of us
dare
to suggest that these stories are true, though many of us will admit
as
much with other like-minded individuals, and will endlessly discuss
the
possibilities these stories hold to refine our ideas of truth.

<snip global warming part of post>

Science does not say that we are descended from the apes. It says that
we
share a common ancestor with the existing apes... more specifically,
the
pan and bonobo chimps. We split from them about 6 million years ago &
eventually became our own species and then eventually had
Manifestations
to teach us how to become human. This seems to be the way Creation
works.
'Abdu'l-Baha does not deny this scenario, and asserts that we once
looked
different than we do at the present time. We seem to have achieved our
present form, or this version of our physical evolution, about 200,000
years ago. Perhaps that coincides with the "first" Manifestation...
who
would be named... Adam? We don't know if that was Him or not. We do
know
that many Manifestations have come to humanity in the past, but that
information is forever lost to our generation. I hope that the next
Manifestation, in about a 1000 years from now, clarifies some of this
history.
warmest regards,
chap




hello again,
here is a quote from Wiki on the chimps:

"Chimpanzee, often shortened to chimp, is the common name for the two
extant
species in the genus Pan. The better known chimpanzee is Pan
troglodytes,
the Common Chimpanzee, living primarily in West and Central Africa. Its
cousin, the Bonobo or "Pygmy Chimpanzee" as it is known archaically, Pan
paniscus, is found in the forests of the Democratic Republic of the
Congo.
The Congo River forms the boundary between the two species. Chimpanzees
are
members of the Hominidae family, along with gorillas, humans, and
orangutans."

And here are some numbers posted on srb a few years back... just fyi...
regards,
chap

Subject: dates and numbers and clades.
Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai
Date: 2002-11-26 17:52:08 PST
I agree with you...something seems to have happened when Adam came
along. I think this concept is "supportable" in the Writings... i.e.,
Baha'u'llah says that the Manifestation's purpose is to "educate" us,
and to make us "truly human" and all that. So that Adam might turn out
to be the first "human" is perhaps spiritually, psychologically, and
....yikes... physically true.

It does not matter too much which perspective one uses to look at the
problem (religious or scientific). At some point in the past, we
clearly became MORE human and "evolved" from something different. The
question becomes "when" more than "if."

I will post below a timeline that we can work with. I posted this
earlier on the Yahoo Baha'i Anthropology list. Sources omitted for
brevity. Most textbooks or an Internet search will yield this
info in a scattered form. http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Atrium/1381/ is
just
one site of many.
Cladistically, we seem to have split from Pan (bonobos and chimps)
about 7-9 mya. (a recent find, Sahel. fossil, and mtDNA have pushed
back that number from the 5-7 mya range.) The split from gorilla
seems to have been before that, but is a debatable number.
abbreviations:
LCA = Last Common Ancestor (Pan)
PA = PaleoAnthropology
~ = about
mya = million years ago
kya = thousand years ago (this in preference to using BC)
HN = Homo Neanderthal...
hss = us, modern humans

225 mya = evolution of mammals during the Triassic
65 mya = the K-T boundary... extinction of dinosaurs, Cf. the Chicxulub
structure on the Yucatan
~16 mya = pongoids split into orangutangs/hominoids (gorilla, pan, homo)
~10 mya = gorilla/pan-homo split
~ 7 mya = pan/homo split (ie, our LCA was 6-9 mya)
4.5 mya = Ramidus (an intermediate??)
3.5 mya = early afarensis (Lucy) (apiths)
2.5 - 1.8 mya, = homo erectus (currently believed to be in our line)
~600 kya = Neanderthal/Homo sapien split (or 230 kya by some sources)
400 kya - various African erectoids.
~120 kya = something happens to make us "more human". (this date
fluctuates between 200 kya and 70 kya).*
60 kya = presumed that humans used a boat to arrive in Australia
40 kya = "explosion" into HSS...Cro-Magnon cultures expand
~30 kya = Neanderthals extinct.**
~25kya = remnant erectoids of Austro-Asia go extinct
14.5 kya = Clovis culture Native Americans enter North America.
10 kya = invention of writing (this took until 7 kya to solidify)
4.5 kya = pyramids built
2 kya = Jesus Christ
..15 kya = Baha'u'llah in the Siyah-Chal
+1 kya from now = another Manifestation
+500 kya from now = humans occupy earth
_________
* one could say that between 180 kya and 120 kya, "a predisposition
for human culture distinct from other hominoids evolved."
** the first presumed entry of modern humans into Europe, then the domain
of the Neanderthal, was about 43kya. The last known HN fossils are
from Vindija in Croatia dated between 28-29 kya.
_________
I think we need to define & explore the "whenever" and "how" of our
becoming human... either the 200 kya date, or the 40 kya date. at
which point did we become human? are we even human yet?
Warmest regards!
--Charles











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Relevant Pages

  • Re: Legal, religious, scientific...
    ... extant species in the genus Pan. ... The better known chimpanzee is Pan ... about 7-9 mya. ... 400 kya - various African erectoids. ...
    (soc.religion.bahai)
  • Re: Legal, religious, scientific...
    ... eventually became our own species and then eventually had Manifestations ... species in the genus Pan. ... about 7-9 mya. ... 400 kya - various African erectoids. ...
    (soc.religion.bahai)
  • Re: Legal, religious, scientific...
    ... I think the key point was around 80-100 kya in north Africa when hss ... "Chimpanzee, often shortened to chimp, is the common name for the two extant ... species in the genus Pan. ... about 7-9 mya. ...
    (soc.religion.bahai)
  • Re: Legal, religious, scientific...
    ... I would posit that it started gradually 80-100 kya and continued to flower. ... extant species in the genus Pan. ... The better known chimpanzee is Pan ... about 7-9 mya. ...
    (soc.religion.bahai)
  • Re: coherent, complex & dynamic timeline
    ... 225 mya = evolution of mammals during the Triassic ... extinction of dinosaurs, Cf. the Chicxulub ... 400 kya - various African erectoids. ... 60 kya = presumed that humans used a boat to arrive in Australia ...
    (sci.anthropology.paleo)