Re: Devotionals > Proselytize


On Aug 29, 2006, at 12:59 PM, Susan Maneck wrote:

Every time we discuss teaching you come up with this same example.
I'm not saying that this does not happen..

Dear Doug,

You did indicate that you had never seen a case of proselytizing among
Baha'is in your entire life. I do find that a bit incredible and have
to conclude that we must have strong disagreements as to what
constittues proselytizing.

Hi Susan-
I do not know what to say about all this except that I have seen the examples you speak of, "nodding the head" etc. but the teachers I know who did or do this are not proselytizing, they are simply using a visual aid to solicit agreement. In the Writings we can find quotes saying we should seek points of agreement and in I'm sure we could also make a strong case that souls are created to be cooperative and so we can find communication methods that appeal to this spirit of cooperation. Like anything else though the technique can be misused but I have not seen it being misused in the manner you say. I did the mass teaching, street teaching, direct or what they call heart to heart teaching too but never had the experiences you speak of. I just did not like that type of teaching project and prefer the one on one, making friends etc. I also feel there is just as much danger of criticizing teachers and their methods as there is in teachers proselytizing. My main concern now is there is no way to consult because I am still hearing the "same ole, same ole" criticisms and they simply do not apply to the successful teachers today. My complaint is more along the lines of a failure to teach period because of a misunderstanding that all we have to do is study the Ruhi program but that finally is being changed.

What I am saying is there are plenty of current Baha'is who were taught
in this manner and who are steadfast and active Baha'is.

Maybe there are. I've only met one couple who came into the Faith that
way and reamained steadfast, but I suspect there are others. But that
is quite a separate issue from the question of whether or not such
techniques constitute proselytizing.

Yes, it is and I mentioned this because in general I do not see examples of proselytizing and I'm still in touch with some of these old veteran teachers whom you feel are proselytizing. In any case I don't feel there is anything to be gained by discussion of who is or what is proselytizing for we all have differing perceptions and understandings. To me the bottom line is any method that brings in declarations and also who become consolidated is what we need to do but assigning blame to either the teachers or community is not the answer.

And I also know the critics of Baha'is who teach in this manner are
themeselves not bringing many into the Faith.

Which has what to do with the issue as to whether such techniques are
proselytizing?

Because making such judgments is subjective and we all see things differently. What you see as proseltyzing I do not agree with and vice verse. Susan, my experience is that anyone who is actively and successfully teaching that results in declarations is always being criticized. That may be because of many things but that is my experience. I have been criticized for years for what I teach and now being criticized for doing an SED project. Whenever I have had such criticism I always tell them to take such matters to the Assembly because I'm doing what I am doing because of support from the institution.

To me there is nothing to be gained by criticizing how other Baha'is
teach. We are free to use any method we wish and have been given
guidelines for teaching.

We are also told not to proselytize.

Yes, and we are also told not to criticize but rather to encourage individual initiative and my SED project is the result of individual initiative and I am being told constantly I am not being obedient that I should be devoting my energies to Ruhi study and yet that is not what the institutions say. The problem is far too many Baha'is have become somewhat like clergy or something and go around judging others. They seem to live in a black and white or either/or, right/wrong type of world, probably the result of the influence of our Judaeo/Christian culture and the overall western influence rather than having the attitude of selfless love and doing what it takes to promote and maintain love and unity.

The methods you speak of are not commonplace
today at all in my experience.

Your first post on this thread insisted that in all your life you had
never seen proselytizing at all, so it would not surprise me that you
don't recognize today either.

I will correct that. I have seen Baha'is use methods they felt were appropriate and I did not but I would not call it proselytizing, I would call it ineffective. We can find things wrong with everyone if we look for it.

I myself, with the help of my wife and one other Baha'i, and the
prayers and some assistance from another have operated an SED project
which as you know is not directly for teaching but yet not one class I
have had in this service project has been completed without some
student wanting to know something related to religion and I have been
able to mention Baha'i or the Greatest Name, Progressive Revelation and
compartitive religion in a very positive and non-proselytizing way

That's good. I have the same results in my World Civilization classes.

and
when anyone wants more information I turn them over to a wonderful,
audacious and loving teacher.

Aren't you a teacher? Why turn them over to someone else?

Because our program had to observer the separation of church and state rule in a govt. funded institution.

The result was ten declarations, seven
directly from the classes and three from those seven teaching others.
Not one is active and it was not because of not being taught correctly,
it was because of the lack of proper consolidation when they came into
the community. And that was because of prejudice and a lack of
training in how to deal with people who were addicts.
I do not feel the problem is in poor teaching methods, I think it is an
overall problem in the community whereby we do not have selfless love.

That's too bad. But these are not declarants who were brought in by
the type of proselytizing I was describing earlier anyhow.

No they were not but the teacher is someone who is very audacious and often mistaken as being pushy. She is a most loving and sacrificial person, giving of herself to teaching and service but some members in the community are criticizing.

Rather than discussing proselytizing I would like to see us discuss why it is we have lost members, have had a long decline in lack of enrollments and what can we do to reverse this and take advantage of what the House says is a time when we have more opportunities and there are many receptive souls waiting to come into the Faith.

The one thing we did not mention, in terms of reviewing methods of teaching, gathering cards etc. was that it is the Assembly that gets the credit for enrollments, not the teacher. Therefor if we are enrolling people that are not being taught properly we need to improve our methods of enrollment and consolidation. How does an Assembly determine who is taught properly and thus can be enrolled?

regards,
doug

warmest, Susan


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Relevant Pages

  • Re: American Bahai: Bahai Faith Starts Door-to-Door Proselytizing!
    ... lived in door-to-door was borderline. ... By the way, in my opinion, the 'non-proselytizing' nature of the Faith ... courtesy in teaching. ... "No Proselytizing ...
    (talk.religion.bahai)
  • Re: Devotionals > Proselytize
    ... What I am saying is there are plenty of current Baha'is who were taught in this manner and who are steadfast and active Baha'is. ... We are free to use any method we wish and have been given guidelines for teaching. ... Not one is active and it was not because of not being taught correctly, it was because of the lack of proper consolidation when they came into the community. ... have experienced those who accuse others of proselytizing. ...
    (soc.religion.bahai)
  • Re: Devotionals > Proselytize
    ... You did indicate that you had never seen a case of proselytizing among ... guidelines for teaching. ... compartitive religion in a very positive and non-proselytizing way ... overall problem in the community whereby we do not have selfless love. ...
    (soc.religion.bahai)
  • Re: Devotionals > Proselytize
    ... who did or do this are not proselytizing, ... that principle which differentiates teaching from proselytizing. ... agree we should keep discussion of individual teachers out of it. ... I focus on the techniques I object to not the person who uses them. ...
    (soc.religion.bahai)