Re: Justice and Equity

I got news for you, Larry. Science doesn't tell you what the penalty
for arson should be.

Yet it is science which has informed us that in many cases the cause
of the behavior of arson, as well many other criminal behaviors, is due
to brain injury through trama or Fetal Alcohol Spectrum Disorder. As
well, through science we have begun to understand that punishment such
as the death penalty is ineffectual as a deterent; one of the major
excuses that proponents of the death penalty give for its use. It is
science which has given us this very useful information not religion.

We are all one hundred years ahead of where Baha'u'llah was Susan.

I don't claim to be 'ahead' of Baha'u'llah. Living a hundred years
after Him does not make me more 'advanced.'

I don't believe that I'm better than Baha'u'llah Susan, hardly. What I
recognise is our common humanity.

In other words, you think He is just a man like yourself. Fine, there
is no reason for you to seek justification for your own believes in the
Writings of a man who lived more than a hundred years ago. Your only
motive seems to be spreading confusion within the Baha'i community.

My motive is to dispell confusion as well as imagination Susan. As
Abdu'l-Baha' himself clearly states: "All things are subject to
reformation." Is my insistence that what Abdu'l-Baha' stated about:
"religious beliefs and opinions" which "are found" to be "contrary to
the standards of science" and thus "they are mere superstitions and
imaginations." an untrue thing, a thing meant to sow confusion?

All things are subject to reformation Susan and the agent of that
reformation is reason. When religionists, no matter whether they are
Christians, Jews, Muslims or Baha'is, refuse to allow reason to reform
religious beliefs and opinions which can clearly be shown to be
contradictory, and or contrary to reason, they are blindly holding onto
such beliefs and opinions only through imagination. This is contrary to
Baha'u'llah's forth teaching Susan.

I never say: "believe what I believe", I say: "use your own God given
intelligence and reason to independently investigate the truth of the
matters of which I am speaking."

Like I said in my last post I have profound respect for Baha'u'llah's
right to have interpretated his human spiritual experiences in the
manner in which he did. I don't believe that Baha'u'llah's personal
interpretation of his own spiritual station is central to his principle
teachings of the oneness of humanity, the equality of women with men,
the harmony of true religion with science. These are all concepts which
clearly stand on their own and which will be a force for positive
change in our world regardless of whether or not only a minute
percentage of the world's population ever interpret Baha'u'llah's
spiritual experiences in the way that he did.

Had it not been for my dream of Baha'u'llah tent and his Taj Susan I
would not be here encouraging Baha'is to use their God given
intelligence and reason to see that: "all things are subject to
reformation", is an vitally important spiritual truth.

If you were speaking for 'all humanity to see' then you would look for
forums that include a greater portion of humanity. Instead your
postings are limited to Baha'i forums. That suggests much more
destructive motivations to me.

It has always been the way of traditionalist religious orthodoxies to
typify those who make efforts towards reformation as ' destructive '.
If the dispelling of imagination and superstition based religious
beliefs and opinions is destructive I more than gladly destroy such
imaginations and superstitions.

One thing you need to remember Susan is that there was Baha'u'llah's
Taj in my dream as well as his tent and that his Taj was immaculate,
pristine, and illuminating. That his tent was worn, patched and
threadbare in places is only proof to me that what Abdu'l-Baha' himself
stated: " all things are subject to reformation ", is true. Proof as
well that it is not in the differing as well as diverse 'tents', or
"superstructures" of religion that humanity will find " complete untiy
and amity ", but through investigating, "the original intention", the
'Taj', that humanity will progress.

Fully embracing Universal teaching such as the oneness of humanity,
the full equality of women with men, the harmony of true religion with
science is what I encourage Susan. To fully embrace these Universal
teachings Susan requires that people turn away from the earthly
limitations, of dividing humanity the pure tree from the evil tree, of
shunning as well as drawing lines between enemies and friends, of the
justication of inequity between women and men, all for excuses which
can clearly be shown to be not based on reason as well as intelligence
but only on imagination.

"Religion is the outer expression of the divine reality. Therefore, it
must be living, vitalized, moving and progressive. If it be without
motion and nonprogressive, it is without the divine life; it is dead."

I encourage, leaving behind the dead 'tent' and the donning of the
living, vitalized, moving and progressive 'Taj'.

Yours

Larry Rowe

The fourth teaching of Bahá'u'lláh is the agreement of religion and
science. God has endowed man with intelligence and reason whereby he is
required to determine the verity of questions and propositions. If
religious beliefs and opinions are found contrary to the standards of
science they are mere superstitions and imaginations; for the
antithesis of knowledge is ignorance, and the child of ignorance is
superstition. Unquestionably there must be agreement between true
religion and science. If a question be found contrary to reason, faith
and belief in it are impossible and there is no outcome but wavering
and vacillation.

(Abdu'l-Baha, Baha'i World Faith - Abdu'l-Baha Section, p. 240)

Religion is the outer expression of the divine reality. Therefore, it
must be living, vitalized, moving and progressive. If it be without
motion and nonprogressive, it is without the divine life; it is dead.
The divine institutes are continuously active and evolutionary;
therefore, the revelation of them must be progressive and continuous.
All things are subject to reformation. This is a century of life and
renewal. Sciences and arts, industry and invention have been reformed.
Law and ethics have been reconstituted, reorganized. The world of
thought has been regenerated. Sciences of former ages and philosophies
of the past are useless today. Present exigencies demand new methods of
solution; world problems are without precedent. Old ideas and modes of
thought are fast becoming obsolete. Ancient laws and archaic ethical
systems will not meet the requirements of modern conditions, for this
is clearly the century of a new life, the century of the revelation of
reality and, therefore, the greatest of all centuries. Consider how the
scientific developments of fifty years have surpassed and eclipsed the
knowledge and achievements of all the former ages combined. Would the
announcements and theories of ancient astronomers explain our present
knowledge of the suns and planetary systems? Would the mask of
obscurity which beclouded medieval centuries meet the demand for
clear-eyed vision and understanding which characterizes the world
today? Will the despotism of former governments answer the call for
freedom which has risen from the heart of humanity in this cycle of
illumination? It is evident that no vital results are now forthcoming
from the customs, institutions and standpoints of the past. In view of
this, shall blind imitations of ancestral forms and theological
interpretations continue to guide and control the religious life and
spiritual development of humanity today? Shall man, gifted with the
power of reason, unthinkingly follow and adhere to dogma, creeds and
hereditary beliefs which will not bear the analysis of reason in this
century of effulgent reality? Unquestionably this will not satisfy men
of science, for when they find premise or conclusion contrary to
present standards of proof and without real foundation, they reject
that which has been formerly accepted as standard and correct and move
forward from new foundations.

(Abdu'l-Baha, The Promulgation of Universal Peace, p. 140)

Thus religion which was destined to become the cause of friendship has
become the cause of enmity. Religion, which was meant to be sweet
honey, is changed into bitter poison. Religion, the function of which
was to illumine humanity, has become the factor of obscuration and
gloom. Religion, which was to confer the consciousness of everlasting
life, has become the fiendish instrument of death. As long as these
superstitions are in the hands and these nets of dissimulation and
hypocrisy in the fingers, religion will be the most harmful agency on
this planet. These superannuated traditions, which are inherited unto
the present day, must be abandoned, and thus free from past
superstitions we must investigate the original intention. The basis on
which they have fabricated the superstructures will be seen to be one,
and that one, absolute reality; and as reality is indivisible, complete
unity and amity will be instituted and the true religion of God will
become unveiled in all its beauty and sublimity in the assemblage of
the world.

(Abdu'l-Baha, Divine Philosophy, p. 161)


.

Relevant Pages

  • Re: I Think
    ... God may need to add something to living beings to create ... anything at all with logic or reason. ... Atheism has hijacked science and gives science a black eye. ... Religion, but science inparticular, has been duped. ...
    (talk.origins)
  • Religion & Science
    ... It follows that ultimately what we regard as truth is a matter of faith. ... In fact, all three -Religion, Science and Technology- require all three ... Without data that comes from experience neither science nor religion can ... Reason refers to information processing. ...
    (soc.religion.islam)
  • Re: [OT] The stupidity of being too clever by half...
    ... Both science and religion are based on a premise. ... The premise of religion is "because God says", so to know why, ... emerged which have the emergent properties of consciousness and reason. ...
    (sci.electronics.design)
  • Re: Book-able view of ID as speculative science
    ... Tying science idea rankings to human ... For some reason (and frankly, ... >>> Astronomy Magazine accidently put religion in their mag by talking ... > "Regarding religious bias, bias by itself does not make an idea invalid ...
    (talk.origins)
  • Re: Religion or Science. Which is more cool?
    ... But that question can be answered without religion. ... what we want science neither wins nor loses. ... and gives no clue to the purpose of humanity. ...
    (sci.physics)