Re: Re-Creation


On Jul 9, 2006, at 8:45 AM, Kent Johnson wrote:

Hi Doug, You: "There is knowledge that is truth and there is knowledge that
is not truth."

My point is that knowledge is not the same thing as truth. Beside the fact
that knowledge can be mistaken, or a lie, knowledge is like the translation
of truth, it is not the same thing.

Kent-
In your opinion then the knowledge that the sun gives us light is not the same as the truth of the sun? So what is truth, and how would we know it if not by its knowledge?

As an analogy, let's say truth is 423 cameras running 24/7 in Universal
Studios recording everything. Knowledge is a movie shot in Universal
Studios. Or truth is everything that ever happened everywhere and knowledge
is a set of encyclopedias.

But truth is even more than everything that ever happened everywhere,
because it includes motivations, causes, results, even potential. So
knowledge never even nearly encompasses truth.

You are comparing all truth to isolated truths and knowledge. Knowledge can be truth or a lie.

Physical reality is an aspect of God's Truth which emanates from God.

Sure it is, but that is like saying water emanates from God, or words and
concepts, or rice cakes. It is not much of a definition, but it is a true
statement. Physical reality is the physical world, known because it
pertains to nature and can be in some way recorded or measured. Neither
truth nor knowledge can be accurately measured, though we see indications of
truth in our surroundings and of knowledge in our companions. Neither truth
nor knowledge are part of physical reality, bit it is through knowledge that
we know physical reality (a part of truth).

Not sure how this relates to my statement.

I think there is more to it than what you have described but I'm waiting
on others to contribute before I add my two cents.

That is certainly not my style. My two cents are cheap.

So you style is different. So what does that contribute to the topic?

I'm looking for a definition, description and model of reality that is
holistic (whole or holy) which includes both material and spiritual.

The definition would be "everything that is" but the model is harder to come
by. God's Truth must exist, but our knowledge of it is inaccurate and
incomplete. If you ask me, though, the human race is doing pretty well in
making that model (gaining knowledge).

Everything that is? Can you summarize this, say like everything material and spiritual. Could the definition of reality say something like:-
What exists and shows signs registering on our sense perceptions, and thus material, and;
What underlies the appearances of things and thus is spiritual.

So then we can break down both by categories, classifications and sub-classifications if we want.
Through science we have the Classifications etc. and through Revelations we also have spiritual conditions, classifications, sub-classifications named for us too.
For example the Writings tell us there are only three conditions of existence, i.e. Deity, Prophethood and Servitude. In other Writings these are referred to as God, Manifestation and Creation. So in summary then we have a holistic description of reality of existence without any bias.


doug




--Kent






"Douglas McAdam" <douglasmcadam@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:c9a0f178da0ab33442e9add24d9125c1@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

On Jul 8, 2006, at 1:18 PM, Kent Johnson wrote:

Hi Doug, I think you see the difference between truth and knowledge,
don't
you?

It depends on what knowledge you refer to. There is knowledge that is
truth and there is knowledge that is not truth.

And I think you see the difference between God's Truth and physical
reality.

Not, exactly. Physical reality is an aspect of God's Truth which emanates
from God. At least this is what I understand the Writings to say.

As to human hallucinations, well, that is why we have science as a check
against our perceptions of reality. Who is to say there is not world of
pink elephants living everywhere we live but only the few sensitive souls
with the aid of Delirium Tremens can detect the reality.

Yes, for sure.

Also, please be sure to note that physical reality, by definition, is not
concerned with whatever we define as "spiritual". We had a long thread
about that a few months ago.

I don't recall the thread but I agree that physical reality is not
concerned with spiritual reality. The mineral cannot understand the
human, etc.

So what is reality? The obvious definition is that which is real, and I
am
sure that is the definition Abdu'l-Baha was using. Physical reality
would
include anything we can detect and measure. Our knowledge of reality, of
course, is limited to what we know about reality and will never be
identical
with reality.

Did that answer your question?

Nope. I think there is more to it than what you have described but I'm
waiting on others to contribute before I add my two cents. However I will
say I'm looking for a definition, description and model of reality that is
holistic (whole or holy) which includes both material and spiritual.

doug

--Kent

"Douglas McAdam" <douglasmcadam@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:ea35714b1a283912e70757a95dabed3f@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

On Jul 7, 2006, at 8:16 AM, Kent Johnson wrote:

Hi Doug,

You: "This refers to the investigation of reality, but what is reality?
If we exclude the Manifestation of God from the definition or
description and model of reality then are we really facing reality?"

If you exclude anything at all from reality you are not facing a
complete
version of reality.

So apparently I don't know what you are asking. Why would we exclude
anything, especially God, from our view or reality?

--Kent


Some folks think reality is only those things or that thing which we can
perceive with our physical senses. In other words only those things
that
exist in the three dimensions of physical space.
They would not include the Manifestation, or God.
However there can be a problem if don't exclude certain things from
reality. For example a mentally deficient or hallucinogenic person
might
think he sees pink elephants but in reality they are not there.

I would like to know what your definition or model of reality consists
of?

regards,
doug






.

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