Re: Creative Word

Doug: "No, our existence is more than what we reveal. What we reveal is
only
one aspect of our being. We are living souls in seed form."

But God is Perfect, so His Word is His Total Being? It seems to me the
opposite is true. If we are imperfect our word is imperfect. He is perfect
His Word is Perfect. I say, so the word of George is imperfect, but it his
word nonetheless. You say it is not his word because George is imperfect.
But if George were perfect it would be his word. Huh. The meaning of the
word "word" is based upon who speaks the word.

Doug, continuing: "I have no idea what this has to do with the practical
application of the Baha'i Writings in terms of releasing our spiritual
potential."

It is fundamentalism versus independent investigation of truth. It is
dogmatically proclaiming a literalist interpretation of scripture regardless
of reason against investigation and spiritual interpretation.

You seem to be saying there is a difference between what Baha'u'llah
reveals and is consider Baha'i Scriptures and His ordinary, daily
communication with others.

Not so much, but in general it is my contention that the Creative Word of
God can be differentiated in a figurative sense from the Manifestation of
God's every-day existence, especially in the sense of the non-religionist
looking at the historical figure that a religionist would characterize as
the Most Precious Being. An historian or journalist unaware and unwilling
to accept the creative aspect of the Being and therefore the Utterance is
not creative, but revealed nonetheless.

...whatever the Manifestations of God also say in daily life is also the
Word of God exemplified and thus it is creative also and I think the quote
Suzanne offered points this out.

Again, which quote? If you are saying the quote where the Word of God is
"endowed" or "imbued" or someway shows a creative power I have no problem
with that. The Word can be creative, it has that power. That every letter
of every word creates is my issue.

--Kent







"Douglas McAdam" <douglasmcadam@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:cd7706194b998b925da0c1e5a7b601b1@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

On Mar 11, 2006, at 10:16 PM, Kent Johnson wrote:

"Douglas McAdam" <douglasmcadam@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:ed63e2bbef076faf2ddc2d79aad9d051@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

I will try to distinguish this simply for you. Distinguish means to find
a
difference. You repeat that you see no difference between the revealed
Word
of God (that which was revealed or shown or written) and the creative
Word
of God (that which caused something to come into being or be created).
That
means you do not see the difference between what was written and what is
creative. Therefore all that was revealed was creative. There was no
Word
of God that we have available to us (revealed) which is not creative.

That is the first distinction I make. I titled this thread around making
that distinction.

Dear Kent-
I do not see that you show a distinction. Besides Suzanne has already
posted a quote saying that
every word out of the Manifestation's mouth is creative..

You:
No I am not reluctant I just don't believe we can distinguish between
the
two for they are one and the same. Can you give me an example of the
Revealed Word of God that is not the Creative Word?<

If you are saying that the Manifestation is the Word and the Word is
always
Creative then it seems to me that you are saying that there was no
insignificant aspect of the existence of Baha'u'llah. That every
nanosecond
of breath, of blood coursing through the precious veins was creative.
Can
you tell me what any specific nanosecond of breath created? It seems to
me
it would be up to you to prove that it was creative, not up to me to
prove
that it was not. It is logically impossible to prove that nothing
happened.
A proof must be that something happened. I can't prove there are no
unicorns, but if there were a unicorn that fact could be proven easily.
I
can't prove something was not creative, but if it were creative that
should
be easily proved.

Kent, you are not answering my question. I asked you to give me an
example of the Revealed Word of God that is not the Creative Word of God.
You propose there is a distinction. Please show me a quote or example of
this distinction.

The second distinction I am making is that the Manifestation of God is
not
the same thing as the Word. That means that the existence of a thing is
not
the word of the thing. You insist "The Manifestation of God IS the Word
of
God. " In general Baha'i usage, Manifestation of God refers to a Figure
such as Baha'u'llah, Christ, the Buddha, etc. The Word of God on the
other
hand refers to writing in a book. A very special book, in our collective
opinion, but a book nonetheless.

The Writings clearly state otherwise Kent. The Manifestation IS the Word
of God.. He is the Word.
All the Manifestations are the Word of God. They are the Word manifested.
God reveals Himself in the Manifestation. The Manifestation reveals the
Word of God and it is recording in Writing for our understanding and
application. But it is also manifested in Creation and is observed by
observing Creation. All that we see in this word is because of the Word
of God being manifested here..Again, quotes have been supplied about this
so I do not know what the problem is.

So the distinction between a word and a personage is not one that I
believe
I should have to defend. In my opinion it should be up to you to show
that
a person is a book, or vice versa, or both.

Kent, you seem to be ignoring the quote Suzanne has offered. It is plain
to see that the Manifestation IS the Word of God and He Reveals God to us
and that Revelation is Creative. Suzanne also offered the quote showing
how every word out of their mouths is creative. Please show me a
distinction between what they Reveal and They Themselves.. Are you saying
that the Manifestation "appears to us as a human being" and thus is
different than the Word out of His mouth then I would say yes, in a way,
except the Manifestation is also a manifestation of the Word. He and His
words are identical, one is written or spoken and one is exemplified by
His life, His very being.

You quoting me: >> What I do not understand is how you call every action,
every
influence, the
very act of existing to be the Word of God.
You > Where did I say this?

You said the Manifestation (see definition above) was the Word (see
definition above). If you do not understand how the perso is the action,
the influence, the very act of existing, well, what part of that is not
the
person?

I think I explained this above.

Logically speaking, if you were to say that God's Word is a Person I
should
be able to likewise say that George's word is a person and have that be
just
as true. If it is not true both ways, why not?

The problem is that we are fallible human critters and our words is not
our manifested being. We are different than our words. We do not manifest
our true selves for we are gradually evolving spiritually whereas the
Manifestation manifests God's Holy Spirit to us in words and deeds.

Me: "Is our existence, what we reveal in our world, the word of
humanity?"
That's just like George, see?

No, our existence is more than what we reveal. What we reveal is only one
aspect of our being. We are living souls in seed form.

I am interested to see what you come up with to answer this one.

Kent, I'm sorry and I mean no disrespect but I have no idea what this has
to do with the practical application of the Baha'i Writings in terms of
releasing our spiritual potential.
You seem to be saying there is a difference between what Baha'u'llah
reveals and is consider Baha'i Scriptures and His ordinary, daily
communication with others. This is what Muslims believe too about
Muhammad and how they came up with the Hadith. The problem here is that
what we hear of what Baha'u'llah said in daily communication is hearsay
and what we have in the Writings is direct Revelation from God. If that is
what you mean then I agree with exception that whatever the Manifestations
of God also say in daily life is also the Word of God exemplified and thus
it is creative also and I think the quote Suzanne offered points this out.


--Kent




On Mar 10, 2006, at 11:30 AM, Kent Johnson wrote:


"Douglas McAdam" <douglasmcadam@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:9c3255aa57e7d7ea21ccfcff50c610e0@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Dear Kent-
Sorry but I see no difference. The Manifestation of God IS the Word
of
God. He manifests God's attributes to us. God speaks to us through
the
Manifestation. God Creates. Each Revelation recreates Creation and
endows it with a new potential. The Word of God creates. The
revealed
Word of God is a creative Word of God. To me there is no difference.

I understand you are reluctant to distinguish between what is revealed
and
what is creative. I see you saying that all of the revealed Word of
God
is
creative. And I understand that, mainly because I have distinguished
between that which is individually creative for each individual human
and
that which is generally creative for the world of humanity. I
understand
that you deny such a distinction.

Dear Kent-
No I am not reluctant I just don't believe we can distinguish between
the
two for they are one and the same. Can you give me an example of the
Revealed Word of God that is not the Creative Word? The Creative Word
of
God for an individual or for humanity is still the Creative Word..

What I do not understand is how you call every action, every influence,
the
very act of existing to be the Word of God.

Where did I say this?


Is our existence, what we reveal in our world, the word of humanity?

Huh!. I do not understand this. Our existence we owe to God. What we
reveal of ourselves and what we simply think and do not reveal are both
aspects of our existence.

regards,
doug


God creates us, He recreates and endows us with a new potential and
the
capacity and powers to achieve it. His Word is creative and it is
Revealed
to us. I can create an image on paper and then reveal it to someone.
What
I reveal is the image I created. They are one and the same.

Thanks for answering my questions.

--Kent








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