Re: Talk on the Faith: Advice?

Hi Kent-
Yes indeed, emails are a very difficult medium with which to communicate spiritual realities, feelings and meanings.
Sorry you felt offense cause none was intended.
Have a great day,
God bless,
doug

On Dec 27, 2005, at 6:26 PM, Kent Johnson wrote:

Hi Doug, we are certainly not communicating very well at all. I am the last
person on earth to suggest that we should not quote the writings, and your
suggestion that I am saying that is offensive.

So rather than prolong this miscommunication I will wish you a good bye.

--Kent

"Douglas McAdam" <douglasmcadam@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:6495a500ecccc8f9f631ae25e37b092d@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Dear Kent-
Maybe you should read up on what Baha'u'llah says about the Creative Word
of God rather than taking my opinion on it.
I would strongly suggest that the actual words of the Manifestation or
those of the Beloved Master, and the Guardian of the Faith are much more
powerful that our personal comments.
I believe any talk or teaching experience with non-Baha'is will be more
successful when quotes from our Writings are used. And in this regard you
might want to speak with veteran teachers of the Faith and I can give you
some email addresses if you like.

regards,
doug


On Dec 25, 2005, at 7:05 PM, Kent Johnson wrote:

I don't understand, again, why you want me to ask others about the
difference between the creative Word of God and the revealed word of God.
If memory serves, you had some point to make about that difference. If
you
want to make that point I am waiting, but for now I do not understand
what
you are saying.

Are you defending your statement that memorizing a Paris Talk is more
effective of "powerful" in some way than talking to people?

-- Kent


"Douglas McAdam" <douglasmcadam@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:d98fb9cc05f0e58df1a46e0cd14e8d57@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Dear  Kent-

Sorry you had trouble following me.

As I understand it, from the Baha'i Writings, the Manifestation of God
IS the Word of God and He REVEALS the Word to Creation. He Manifests
the Word.

( m ) The reality of prophethood, which is the Word of God and the
perfect state of manifestation, did not have any beginning. its rising
(origin, beginning?) is different from all others and is like that of
the sun. (`Abdu'l-Baha: Some Answered Questions, Page: 152)

Why don't you write to Dr. Susan Manek for a clearer, more academic
type explanation.

Regarding religion, I agree there is One Religion,(R) but there also
are religions(r). How this was explained to me is that God Reveals His
Religion to us and what we understand and apply is a religion the we
create from our limited interpretations.
( o ) The Manifestations of universal Prophethood .. for example,
Abraham, Moses, Christ, Muhammad, the Bab and Baha'u'llah.. For the
independent Prophets are founders; They establish a new religion and
make new creatures of men; They change the general morals, promote new
customs and rules, renew the cycle and the Law. Their appearance is
like the season of spring, which arrays all earthly beings in a new
garment, and gives them a new life. (`Abdu'l-Baha: Some Answered
Questions, Pages: 164-165)

( n ) Every true Prophet hath regarded His Message as
fundamentally the same as the Revelation of every other Prophet gone
before Him.. The measure of the revelation of the Prophets of God in
this world, however, must differ. Each and every one of them hath been
the Bearer of a distinct Message, and hath been commissioned to reveal
Himself through specific acts.
(Baha'u'llah: Gleanings, Pages: 78-79)

So there are two types of conversions, i.e. a non-believer to become a
believer in God and from one religion to another.

Regarding our words vs the Revealed Word, well, all I can say is read
the Writings for yourself and you will find that the revealed Word of
God has more power than our words. It is called the Creative Word of
God.

Hope this helps a little.

warm regards,
doug


On Dec 24, 2005, at 11:09 PM, Kent Johnson wrote:

Doug, I am sorry, but I have so much trouble with what you say that I
hardly
got through the first paragraph.

"Logos" is the Greek word for "word" famously translated in the
Christian
Bible, especially the prologue to the Gospel of John "In the
beginning..."

I am sure that I don't know how you are using the word unless you are
trying
to say that the "Creative Word" of a Manifestation of God is not the
same as
the "Revealed Word" of the same Personage. I am not certain that you
are
correct in your assertion, but I am willing to accept it for the time
being
in order to follow your logic.

I have trouble, again, with the assertion that the Creative Word of
God can
be said to have been "in Arabic or Farsi" ("Farsi" is the Persian word
for
"Persian"). But let's get past that also.

Your point seems to be: "...the exact words we have in our Baha'i
books are
far more powerful than our own renditions..." In my mind it seems to
beg
the question of what sort of 'power" we are talking about. I wrote you
concerning the power to change lives, to awaken souls to the Spirit of
God.
And for that purpose I see heart to heart conversation more useful
than the
printed word regardless how powerfully printed.

"...that the holy ecstasy of prayer may fill our souls-a prayer that
shall
rise above words and letters and transcend the murmur of syllables and
sounds--"

Now that's what I'm talkin' 'bout.

 "As to conversions, well that is a term used and given much
importance also
in our Writings"

Okay, You want to talk about conversions. I want to talk about
realizing
the living God regardless of religion: for there is but one religion
of God.
How can someone convert from God's religion to God's religion? I
believe
our writings are talking about conversion from nothing to God's
religion.
If we can awaken a soul we have changed the world. If the soul is
awakened
we have no work to do. Unless maybe you are suggesting that we ask the
person to sign a card. If that is the point to the Baha'i Faith then I
converted to the wrong religion.

"Lot of people can preach and talk about faith etc. but to me what we
are
being asked to do is perform by doing service to God and humanity.
Besides
how else can we acquire
true faith unless we act on our beliefs?"

What good is a faith that does not require any action?  An awakened
soul
will act, no doubt.  It is a wonder to behold.

Nice chatting with you.

--Kent


"Douglas McAdam" <douglasmcadam@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:c76356c5583d2ddfad4d53ddad39a7d0@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Hi Kent=-
Well there are two meanings to the Word of God. First of all,
according
to my understanding of the Baha'i Writings the Word of God is the
Manifestation (logos) and then there is the "Revealed Word of God) the
Writings of the Baha'i Faith for example.
These Writings are revealed by the Manifestation not by us. However I
tend to feel, and I am not saying this is what Baha'is believe, that
it is
the concepts in the revealed Word of God, not necessarily the exact
words.
The Revealed Word is in Arabic or Farsi but then translated into over
100
languages, and they all represent the Revealed Word of God. However
the
exact words we have in our Baha'i books are far more powerful than
our own
renditions with the more common language.

In the prayer for Firmness in the Covenant it says-
"...that the holy ecstasy of prayer may fill our souls-a prayer that
shall
rise above words and letters and transcend the murmur of syllables and
sounds--"
So maybe there is something to the idea that it is the concept felt
in the
heart and not the language itself that communicates the Revealed Word
of
God.

As to conversions, well that is a term used and given much importance
also
in our Writings. No religion can exert the desired and intended
influence
by God unless it numerically gains strength. In the book Secret of
Divine
Civilization the Beloved Master says-
"The second of these spiritual standards which apply to the possessor
of
knowledge is that he should be the defender of his faith. It is
obvious
that these holy words do not refer exclusively to searching out the
implications of the Law, observing the forms of worship, voiding
greater
and lesser sins, practicing the religious ordinances, and by all these
methods, protecting the Faith. They mean rather that the whole
population
should be protected in every way; that every effort should be exerted
to
adopt a combination of all possible measures to raise up the Word of
God,
increase the number of believers, promote the Faith of God and exalt
it
and make it victorious over other religions. If, indeed, the Muslim
religious authorities had persevered along these lines as they ought
to
have done, by now every nation on earth would have been gathered into
the
shelter of the unity of God and the bright fire of "that He may make
it
victorious over every other religion"
*23 would have flamed out like the sun in the midmost heart of the
world.
*23- Qu'ran 9:33;48:28,61:19 Abdu'l-Baha) page 41, Secret of Divine
Civilization

Retention? Now that is another matter. Teaching and consolidation
are to
go hand in hand, according to our advice from the Writings. And
there are
both indirect and direct ways to teach the Faith. I have done it all
and
many years ago I decided that it was best for me to do service work
and so
I worked on two Indian Reservations and now am operating a Social and
Economic Development project for Troubled Youth and Adult Offenders
and I
love it. Lot of people can preach and talk about faith etc. but to me
what we are being asked to do is perform by doing service to God and
humanity. Besides how else can we acquire true faith unless we act
on our
beliefs?

peace,
doug








On Dec 22, 2005, at 9:57 AM, Kent Johnson wrote:

It is the Word of God that attracts and stimulates hearts, not our
words.

Hi Doug. The Word of God is not uttered by God, but rather His
words are
voice by us lowly humans. His sentiments might best be voiced with
His
words, but I find myself fully capable of using words that come to
me to
explain and voice His high Purpose.

If you want to talk about retention in religion I think we will need
some
statistics. I believe people who go to "...revivals, programs
etc.." are
looking for that Spirit we all seek. They are not looking to fill
the
roles
of any church, and therefore, retention rates are not an appropriate
measure
of the draw to such a gathering.

Baha'is often talk about conversion. I don't. I talk about how to
show
the
Spirit of God to His people.













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