Re: Dr Zwicky: Help me with cunts!

On Sun, 28 May 2006 02:47:04 +0000, Ellen Evans wrote:

In article <Xns97D0B9187785Df99a49ed1d0c49c5bbb2@xxxxxxxxx>, David W.
Fenton <XXXusenet@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

[]

My impression was that Western Europeans are comfortable thinking this is
so, but in fact, their tolerance is only skin deep (as it were), and
easily exhausted once it's put to any kind of serious test, as it is
every day in the US, and hardly ever in the racially homogeneous cultures
of Western Europe.

I don't usually read you as wilfully obnoxious -- I can deal with that
alright -- but it's hard to imagine you're unaware how offensive you're
sounding. All my American acquaintances, and I'd be surprised if it was
any different for you, rightly object to Western Europeans (or any other
kind of European-cultured people, for that matter) pontificating about
what "Americans" think, what "American values" are etc. pp. ad nauseam.

I don't have a lot to say about this other than to say that my experience
in Paris - admittedly decades ago, now - was that there was absolutely
racism, [...]

So that this is clear: There is racism and xenophobia [I make a slight
difference] in France, Germany, the UK, and I'm aware of specific examples
from at least half a dozen of other European countries. It would be a
miracle if there wasn't. It's despicable and shameful. About everyone I
socialise with, along with I'm quite sure a majority (if not an
overwhelming majority, alas) of the people 'round here are aware of that.

but that it was inflected differently.

Yes, important point. Unlike what my flitting from EU country to EU
country with nary an immigration officer in sight might suggest, the
countries over here have actually different histories. A significant
number of centuries of different and conflicted histories. These histories
have played out in significant different ways when it comes to a) the
relationship to the world outside Europe / colonialism; b) the
relationship to one's neighbours, in particular the poorer parts of Europe
/ former Soviet block; c) the way and degree in which Nazism and other
forms of mid-20th century xenophobic totalitarian nationalism managed to
gain hold. So much for racism. For sexism, I'd look at the different
countries' relationship to religion (esp. Roman Catholicism), tradition
and the role of institutions. They are all different.

I dunno - the fact that
Americans *brought* Africans to this country against their will makes the
problems feel different than those in a country where formerly subject
peoples immigrate as a matter of "choice."

Precisely. And this could be elaborated in many many ways.

As for your examples, expressing disapproval of the mere act of
socialising with non-white people or interracial relationships is by now
very much stigmatised in France, at least in the public discourse. It's
marginal, though I'm sure a lot of ugly stuff is going on behind closed
doors. Cafés are an interesting topic. One of my closest acquaintances
was the owner of a small café across from my place, himself Kabyle from
Algeria. I got some insight into how the patrons of various cafés (self-)
select.

Now is France more racist/sexist than the UK, Germany, the US? The answer
depends on your yardstick, and there just isn't one that would yield
universally valid results. (There are even ways in which Germany could be
seen as less sexist than France, though on many measures I'd apply, France
would come out better.)

chris-off-to-somewhere-in-London
who'll write more on various forms of racism/xenophobia

--
blog: http://serendipity.lascribe.net/
eggcorns: http://eggcorns.lascribe.net/

.

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