Re: Patriarchal Church Being Outsourced. :-)


pandora wrote:
"Hyerdahl" <Hyerdahl3@xxxxxxx> wrote in message
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pandora wrote:
"Hyerdahl" <Hyerdahl3@xxxxxxx> wrote in message
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rdubose@xxxxxxx wrote:
Hyerdahl wrote:
rdubose@xxxxxxx wrote:
(edit)

There> is no sense in which these traditiions have formed
organizations
capable of resisting contrary forces in society.

Sure there is.

Examples? Public examples, not the hiding kind.

Here is a webcite where you can find a coven in your area.

www.pagannews.com/cgi-bin/resource1.pl - 40k - Cached

Indeed, we might say that a matriarchal "church" is a
contradiction
in terms.

I don't think of Paganism (in its many forms) as a matriarchal
organization. Pagans worship nature and nature includes men.
Women > have never had a vested interest in keeping men out; women are
not jealous of men.

No Wiccan ever said out-loud, "I am Wiccan and proud of it!"
in the face of anyone inclined to put such in danger.

I don't know that this would matter either way, true or not, and
of > course, you have no way to prove a negative. But again, what
rational > person would subject themselves to death in order to support
NATURE...which is self supportive.

In other words, in the Wiccan world view, it matters not whether
believes one way or another, or acts one way or another.

Well, nature (or the world) continues on no matter how you
believe,
but> your belief system can certainly shape you into whatever kind of
person> you want to be.

If you want to be a certain kind of person, why not just be it;
why invoked the matter of belief system?

You can. In fact, Secular Humanists, like myself, do just that.
However, if having a faith helps you attain your goal, there's nothing
wrong with that. And Wicca or Paganism are just other faiths.

Agreed completely.

Wicca can do that; so can Christianity.

So can nothing at all.

Well, you can develop your own moral code, as I have, but then again,
I am not without inspiration. I enjoy the writings of many people who
claim to have religous faith, and I have no doubt that the writings of
Jesus and others are inspiring. I also enjoy reading books about
Paganism.

As do I. I read the philosophies of many, both secular and religious;
of> all religions. It is interesting to study the thoughts and aspirations
of> other humans. After all, we've all been or are, on this planet
together.

Sure, and I think two heads (or a hundred and two:-) are better than
one. Every time I pick up a biography or autobio. of a person who has
contributed to society, either on a social level or a spiritual level,
I learn something. This has helped inspire me to be ...I hope...a
better person. I have even learned a thing or two here, and met one
or two friends. :-)

I consider what I learn from others to be very valuable, even if it's
negative sometimes. It helps explain (to me) how some people behave when
they feel free. It's an interesting study I've been doing for several
years.


People choose > their religion based on what kind of person they want
to be. Me? I> have a hard time accepting that "god" is everywhere, but still needs
money. :-)

Nature doesn't need to convince anyone of its omnipresence

The difference between this and nihilism is...?

Hugely different. Nihilism doesn't endorse the positive magic
nature has to offer. And the worship of nature doesn't result in
negative energy.


This is an unsupported assertion. More like a prayer.

Well, you asked me what I thought, and I told you my thoughts.
Nihilism is negative energy. I don't believe in that, but rather, a
purposeful existence. Some people base that on a prescribed god and
others base it on nature....while still others use their own will to
design their moral code. I think door number three is a bit harder,
if> you want to know the truth. :-)

I tend to agree with that as well. I began with door #1 in my youth and
NO ONE was more religious than I. Then, I began to question my
patriarchal> religion and moved on to a worship of Nature. In my later years, I'm
moving> on once again; designing my own moral code (as you mentioned above), and
yes, it IS quite difficult but worth it for me. My own daughter
recently > asked me for advice with raising her daughter with regards to Religion.
I
told her that IMO, the best thing to do was to a) tell her about the
various> religious beliefs of others, b) don't TELL her what to believe and c)
help > her to find her own path whatever it may be. That is how I raised MY
kids > and it seems to have stood them in good stead. They are constantly
growing > intellectually and spiritually and question constantly, Life, the
Universe > and Everything. It makes for interesting people, IMO, as well as
*lively*> > dinner table conversation. :-)

Two comedians I love, George Carlin and Bill Maher, have both expressed
the notion that folks are afraid to say the words "I don't know" to
their children. I find that rather sad, that parents want their
children to think they KNOW everything.

As do I. It seems that eventually these children will discover (that is if
they aren't completely brain dead), that their parents lied to them at one
time or another. I thinik that in part it is what makes teen rebellion so
prevalent. Mine never rebelled because they didn't have anything to rebel
against, I think. Oh, one said that he once thought about getting ALL his
hair shaved off just to be a butthead but then stopped and figured that ole
MomnDad would probably not even bother to comment. So he didn't bother
doing it. I always thought that was pretty neat.

Cute story. One of my children had such a hard time going left of me,
that vegetarianism was a way of rebellion. I have to admit, I had much
more difficulty cooking for that child. :-) But yes, I never had to
deal with tatoos or body piercings. I guess that's because I have some
of my own. :-) Oh well; I grew up in the 60s. :-)


When a religious fundy asks
me if I'm not afraid for my immortal soul, or whether or not I'm
worried about meeting "God" when I die, I tell them "I don't
know....and neither do YOU. :-) That is why I'm agnostic, not because
I don't consider myself a spiritual being, but moreso because I don't
fu$%$# KNOW! :-)

Exactly. I used to say I was an atheist but that was before my beautiful
grandchildren arrived. Now, I just don't know and am not afraid to say so.

And anyone who says they DO know, I laugh at. I watch the sun set nightly
and hear the waves on the shore and I wonder, but I would NEVER presume to
KNOW. It may all be some cosmic joke being played upon us by aliens and if
so, I hope to laugh. Laughing and smiling is good for one.

Well, if there is a diety, what kind of diety would be humorless?

Commanches who> tortured captives just because they were bored did
not
think they were in any way violating the worship of nature.

I don't know much about Indian lore, but uneducated or unenlightened
people often make the mistake of thinking that might makes right. And
let's not forget that being in nature does not automatically make one
in tune with nature. When some Indians got into that "fire water" we
could see that outcome too. :-)

Indeed. It's not always easy to be in tune with Nature. And when you
get
right down to it, people are just people and not necessarily *kind* or
*understanding*, or *sympathetic* to others. It's a good thing to TRY
to
be, IMO, but one doesn't always succeed. And of course, there has
always> > > been the philosophy of the OTHER: the outsider, the suspicious, the
inferior, that has allowed even good people to behave badly.

Sure. Remember that song from the Doors?
People are Strange
When you're a stranger
People are ugly
When you 're alone
Women are wicked
When you're unwanted....



One can declare that nature> abhors certain acts but if another
disagrees it is hard to argue from natures examples - where all
varieties of mischeif are commonplace.

Sure. No one is suggesting that the 'natural man' is any more evolved
than the religious man. However, when we view ourselves as
caretakers of nature, or as a person who worships nature, that is
simply ONE FORM OF religion. And it's growing...again.

Yes, it is. Certainly, even if people profess to believe in other
religions, they have at the same time, a sense of duty where Nature is
concerned. I've seen that attitutde grow even in my own lifetime. It
may > not be soon enough to do any real good, but it's there, it's growing,
and > it's a positive thing IMO. It's a good thing to realize that it's
dangerous> > to shit in our own nest and that we need to be careful about that.
Thinking> people CAN solve problems.

Personally, I think people are (to quote an old Pa. Dutch phrase) "too
late 'schmart'".

nor does nature require money to run the
show. :-) The male-only godhead claims to be everyone, know
everything...and always needs money.

Anything serious done by real life humans needs money. If you
do> > > not
need money and committment you are not trying to make any
difference.

I'm not suggesting witches and warlocks don't use money; I'm
suggesting they don't WORSHIP money which many Christians seem to
do that.> > > > Pass the plate dears.

The conclusion that folks have always made is that it
is a
waste
of time trying build an organizational structure supporting
seminaries,
buildings, etc. along Wiccan lines because it is understood
that
they
always give everything up without a fight - since, deep
down,
they do
not believe there is any point in publically defending their
religious
views.

The old religion doesn't need all your gold and smoke and
mirrors,
dear. Nature is stronger than your god.

Nature exhibits no polarity. Pointless cruelty is on a level
plain
with mercy and reconciliation. Sooner or later each person must
decide
which way to go and "nature" is no guide.

The worship of nature involves a deep abiding gratitude for all we
have
been provided. People who consider themselves caretakers of
nature
certainly have values and a moral code.

Or not. Nazism was one of the pre-eminent examples of a "return
to
nature" movement.

Nonsense! Being a nazi had NOTHING to do with the worship of nature.

Correct.


Nature is a very good guide.

It guides in every direction at once. Therefore, it will lead
a
person wherever that person feels like going.
Or they could go there without invoking "nature".

You seem to believe that the worship of nature should do more than the
worship of the Christian godhead. Surely there have been
axe-murdering > Christians who have been led where they want to go....without invoking> > their 'god'. :-)

More than likely. Although some may have claimed that their GOD made
them> > do it, or they were doing it in the NAME of their GOD. We see quite a
bit > of that even today.

Nature also doesn't need your> > god's collection plate. :-)
So
while you're busy dissing Paganism, > I think I'll just let mother
nature do her work. :-) In the end you
can't keep a good woman down.

Nature in its feminine aspects is headed by the iron laws of
thermodynamics towards complete entropy. No movement, just a
cold
dark
void of featureless, luke-warm stasis.

It has been my observation that those who really possess strength
don't go about the world raising dust. They are more thoughtful,
unlike the US president who has raised lots of dust and bad will.


You said that mother nature will just on doing her work. I
pointed
out that mother nature is running down like battery - headed toward
complete entropy where nothing ever happens. I suppose one could see
that as opposite to "raising dust".

Yes. OTOH, one could see thoughtful action as the reverse of raising
dust. >

Something is ALWAYS going on in Nature.

That's true, giving the glory to the diety and not mankind. :-)

They are the ones who already
know what's going on. They are the ones who know to stay the
course.
I've told this story before, but it fits here. There was an aging
Buddist monk who would sit in the village square for several hours
each
day, letting the sun warm his old bones and he would be surrounded
by
flies. A tourist walked by, just as he took up his prayer rug and
started to leave. She asked him, "How do you manage to meditate
with
all those flies buzzing by your head?" He looked at her and
replied,
"That's easy; I become the flies.".

If he wanted to become truly one with the flies he could eat
them.

Not really. In eating them he eats his own karma. IOW, to understand
nature's magic you must become it. Now you are free to pooh pooh
that theory if you like, and you bitter boys are still free to blow up
the planet raising dust, but what does that really accomplish?

Nothing IMO. I also prefer to become one with the flies (or seagulls or
waves or sunshine), than to eradicate them.

In these terrible times, when the rich seem to see necessity in blowing
up the planet while trying to save their own asses, it would seem that
lighting a candle is STILL better than cursing the darkness.

Indeed, and as one VERY public figure learned (to his detriment), all the
money one can grab onto isn't going to SAVE you in the end.

Indeed. If it's the same public figure I'm thiking about, he still
won't take a walk with Pink. :-)




Marg

.

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