Re: Boys' education funds unveiled to reduce gender gap


Ben wrote:
> Hyerdahl wrote:
> > Ben wrote:
> > >
> > > (Edit)
> > >
> > > Here, I'll engage in a gesture of good faith. Below you'll find links
> > > to two decent studies.
> >
> > Well, if you're REALLY engaging in "good faith" you'd first provide
> > some kind of premise you want to prove with your study/survey,
> > whatever.
>
> I've only been saying it for the last 30-odd posts.

We have been talking about several issues in those posts so your
premise needed to be stated, but I did it for you below.

>
> > And you might even provide a quote from it. But no....Ben,
> > you didn't do that so I'll have do your homework for you here.
>
> Perhaps you'll focus more on your own.
>
> > The
> > premise you are supposed to prove is that boys are facing
> > discrimination or are being shortchanged. It's also a nice thing if
> > you include a quote from the study/survey/whatever and you have not.
>
> Why? Wouldn't you rather read the material and draw your own
> conclusions?

That's now how a thesis is proven, Ben. It's better offer up your
thesis as to what YOU are trying to prove than to simply submit a
study. If you were writing a paper for a professor, you undoubtably
would have provided a thesis and a statement or facts from the study,
and only then a reference to the study.

>> >
> > Read them and comment on them.
> >
> > This isn't about mere "comments", Ben. It's about whether or not you
> > can support your thesis or premise with facts from a study.
>
> Commenting would indicate whether or not you agree.

Agree with what, the study, your thesis or a statement you should have
provided from the thesis?

The fact that I provided the chosen material would indicate I believe
it supports me.

Ah, but you weren't at issue here, your premise was....

> > In return, I expect you to provide me with a study that shows girls
> > are being shortchanged in the classroom *because* of boys sports programs.
> > >
> > My premise is that girls are shortchaged by virtue of unequal funding.
> > That has nothing to do with "classroom", but rather educational
> > funding.
>
> It certainly does, since your premise is that girls are being
> discriminated against.

Are you suggesting that girls can ONLY be "discriminated against" if
they are actually IN the classroom? :-)

Show me the adverse effects of discrimination
> due to boys sports. And you would also need to include the adverse
> effects of girls sports on girls who don't play.
>
The effects of discrimination from having unequal funding is more than
enough to prove such discrimination. There is nothing more I need
there. Boys sports is not the issue here at all, but rather, unequal
funding for girls.


> > > http://www.indiana.edu/~nsse/hssse/pdf/hssse_2005_report.pdf
> > >
> > I tried accessing this one, assuming you provided a real source "in
> > good faith" but only got a blank screen.
> > Do you have some other way to access this?
>
> Hmmm...it's a PDF file, so you'd need Adobe Acrobat to view it. Adobe
> is a free download. I tried to find it in a non-Adobe format, but all
> I find is incomplete bullet point compilations of findings. HSSSE is
> the acronym for High School Survey of Student Engagement, and it's
> conducted by the University of Indiana on over 80,000 students (it
> looks like it's being done yearly). Among the findings was the fact
> that male students feel unsupported and disengaged from school at a
> significantly higher rate than female students. This is greater among
> youth of color.

Well, I have Adobe, but when I try to load this ...all I get is a blank
page in Adobe.
However, just looking at your statement, that male students "feel"
unsupported and disengaged" from school at a higher rate than females,
doesn't mean they are. Nor does it mean they are suffering from
discrimination. Feelings are not the same as facts. So, it would
appear (without my being able to view the study) that you still have
not proven your thesis, i.e. that boys are suffering from
discrimination.

> But I'm surprised that someone who has "been in the school" as much as
> you claim didn't know this survey existed. I knew about it.

I've never claimed that I have "been in the school" for any particular
length of time at all. However, I have had some connections with
schools from time to time. Now that I'm semi-retired, I will have
fewer connections with schools. And, I don't rely upon
self-aggrandizement to prove up my points; I prefer cold hard facts
from good studies.
>
> I like Adobe because I can save the document right to desktop, where I
> can read it much more quickly. I'd copy and paste the entire document,
> but it's 14 pages long and includes lots of charts and graphs that
> probably wouldn't translate here very well. The link itself works,
> because I just opened it in another window. I'm trying to pull out
> some material, but it won't let me copy.

Well, perhaps I need to upgrade my Adobe, but all I get is a blank page
in adobe. I may not pursue this since you have not cited material to
prove up your thesis. But we can talk about the other material you
cited which I could get.

> >
> > > http://www.nfhs.org/scriptcontent/Va_custom/vimdisplays/contentpagedisplay.cfm?content_ID=163
> > >
> > I was able to access this and there was absolutely zero mention of boys
> > being shortchanged in school, nor was there any showing of
> > discrimination against boys. All it was was a puff peice about why
> > team sports should be included in school programs.
>
> Then you obviously didn't read it (which goes to support my contention
> that giving you material is a waste of time). It showed the distinct
> positive correlation between engagement in school activities (not just
> sports) and academic achievement (this same correlation is mentioned in
> HSSSE).

Your thesis, was supposed to be one of boys facing discrimination and
being shortchanged. How would a puff piece showing correlations
between engagement in school activities and achievement prove that
point?

And, when you know that part of my premise is that boys are
> having sports opportunities taken away from them, boys tend to engage
> on sports in higher percentages than girls, and so this is damaging to
> boys--you know this because I've flat out stated it about a dozen
> times--then you should have been able to connect those dots.

Your premise and the facts you're trying to use to support it are not
matching up, Ben. First, both boys and girls are free to engage in
many "school activities" and many are offered, from dance company, to
chess club, to marching band, etc. So, the school never promised you
a rose garden, nor a menu of sports programs to suit. :-) IOW, there
are no dots to connect here. Also, perhaps girls would engage more in
programs for being fashion models, but the schools don't provide that
either. :-) :-) :-) :-)

(edit)
>
> Now nothing. I've said right along that boys don't get the same
> support and encouragement in schools that girls get, and I provided a
> comprehensive survey that says just this.

Nonsense! You provided a puff piece and there was no study showing
that boys don't get the same support. I feel a song coming on.
Feelings.....nothing more than feelings.....

I've claimed that boys are> harmed by the removal of sports programs,
and gave you material that
> proved students engaging in after school activities are far more
> engaged in school overall and do better academically than students who
> don't...boys engage in sports activities more than girls, so taking
> these opportunities away harms them and helps add to
> disenfranchisement. I have other material that supports my contentions
> regarding over-medicating boys, and the differences in learning styles
> between boys and girls.
>
You have NOTHING even vaguely suggesting that boys are facing
discrimination. All you provided was a puff piece about student
engagement in all sorts of school activities. Not one thing you
provided even hinted that boys were either facing discrimination of any
kind or being "shortchanged". You can't infer that from your study
since schools do not have to offer fashion modeling to girls just to
retain their engagement. IN fact, the word was not even used in the
material you provided. As to how PARENTS choose to medicate their own
children, that's really none of my concern.

> You claimed girls were getting shortchanged, but can't demonstrate any
> harm--you're relying solely on correlation without causation concerning
> dollars alone.

Dollars alone are all I need to show discrimination agaisnt girls.
AND, you yourself have already referred to that study done showing that
teachers pay more attention to boys in the classroom. You didn't LIKE
the study but you talked about, so you know about it. I didn't need to
provide that again.

In addition, you've not provided any independent
> verification of your claim(s), so you've not even lived up to the> standard you're demanding of others.
>
Asked and answered Ben.


> The ball's in your court. Let's see what you have.

What I "have" is reason:

1. You have already stipulated to the study showing girls got less
classroom attention by your
unsupported claim that it was debunked.

2. You did NOT provide a clear thesis for what you were trying to
prove in either study offered.

3. I filled in your thesis for you and showed you how the material
did not prove your unstated thesis

4. You can't prove up "X" by offering "Z". ;-) I hope this helps.

.

Relevant Pages

  • Re: Boys education funds unveiled to reduce gender gap
    ... >>> discrimination or are being shortchanged. ... >>> My premise is that girls are shortchaged by virtue of unequal funding. ... >> due to boys sports. ... >> the acronym for High School Survey of Student Engagement, ...
    (soc.men)
  • Re: Boys education funds unveiled to reduce gender gap
    ... My thesis is that girls face discrimination when they ... were nothing about your idea that boys are facing discrimination. ... The reality is that lots of schools are using this ...
    (soc.men)
  • Re: video of a woman pumping gas
    ... You're the one breaking your neck to prove that boys ... "Thirty years ago it was girls, not boys, who were lagging. ... *not* hire male teachers at primary school level. ...
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  • Re: Improving Boys Verbal Performances
    ... ability and boys have outperformed girls in math. ... The poor performance of females in math was alarming to many people. ... school districts make them read today, NO they don't, and I don't blame them ...
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  • Re: Boys education funds unveiled to reduce gender gap
    ... I win my point based on the obvious unfairness to girls within the ... >> were nothing about your idea that boys are facing discrimination. ... > for the girls in school? ...
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