Re: Boys' education funds unveiled to reduce gender gap


Ben wrote:
> Hyerdahl wrote:
> > Ben wrote:
> > > Hyerdahl wrote:
> > > > Ben wrote:
> > > > > Hyerdahl wrote:
> > > > > > Ben wrote:
> > > > > > > (edit)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Just give each child a budget. They and their parents can decide how
> > > > > > > > to spend it.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Right after you show me how sports programs shortchange the girls in
> > > > > > > the classrooms.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >I don't have to Ben; how equal is too equal?
> > > > >
> > > > > Your entire argument is that the girls are being shortchanged. Tell me
> > > > > how. And tell me why it's only the girls.
> > > > > > > >
> > Monetarily. That's how.
>
> In other words, you can't.
>
> >I just did. Money is easy to count.
> >
> > > > > > > > > > >> Boys don't get special rights for falling behind.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > No one is asking for it. I want equal support for the boys.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Then show me the support girls are getting that boys are not. :-)
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Are you going to tell me what you'll accept as proof?
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I already did.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Well, not really. All you're telling me is that you'll only accept
> > > > > > > gender feminist 'studies'--it doesn't take Karnak to figure out what
> > > > > > > those will say. Were you surprised by the results of studies done by
> > > > > > > tobacco companies?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I told you I'd accept any govt. sponsored study not proposed by a male
> > > > > > rights group, NOW, or the Independent Women's Forum (they aren't
> > > > > > independent.) etc.
> > > > >
> > > > > Okay, then which sponsors would be acceptable to you? And why does it
> > > > > have to be a government study?
> > > >
> > > > Govt. studies are the most difficult to pretend existence of space
> > > > ships landing on circle crops and they have several people running them
> > > > so they are less inclined to contain bias. And, you haven't even
> > > > presented me with a study from any other credible group.
> > >
> > > That's right, I haven't. Given your response history, I don't waste my
> > > time with requests like this from you.
> >
> > Then you lose the debate.
>
> Not really. Given that every time I've given you material in the past
> you've either failed to read it or actually run away from the debate,
> your "moral authority" to demand anything from me vanished long ago.
> In that respect, you've lost every single debate in which we've engaged
> where I provided you with sources. So now, knowing your pattern, I
> don't bother.
>
> > If you provide me with a valid govt. study> or even a study by some non-reliigous, non-men's group, I'll be happy
> > to look at.
>
> Past behavior is the best indicator of future behavior--in other words,
> you're lying.
>
> > If you provide an actual study, and a quote from it,
> > indicating that girls are getting educational perks boys are not
> > getting. You would have the moral high ground, if I won't read it. :-)
>
> There's no "if" involved.

Sure there is; you just don't have anything. There is no 'there'
there.>

> > The problem you have is that you can't get milk from a rock. There is
> > no study.
>
> Just out of curiousity, when the big push came in the late 80's/early
> 90's to improve the lot of girls in school, did you ever see an
> equivalent push for boys, even when their performance plummeted?

The only observation I recall about classroom discrimination were the
ones based on teachers calling on boys more and Title IX issues. I
don't recall any other 'push' for anything for girls.

And
> your insistence now that everything is equal for boys and girls with
> the scholastic performance of boys dropping--are you of the opinion
> that the boys are so naturally inferior to the girls with regards to
> intelligence and ability?
>
No. I have three sons, and I don't think boys lack intelligence or
ability, nor do I think girls are smarter.>


> > I *did* tell you where to find> them. It should be unbelievably easy
> > for you to prove me a liar by
> > > simply going and looking where I told you to look...assuming I'm lying.
> >
> > I'm assuming nothing. You have not provided a quote from a valid
> > study, nor have you cited one. Telling a person to go yahoo is NOT
> > proof of any sort.
>
> Then you understand you'd be unable to prove I'm lying...I even gave
> you names. Good enough for me. :)
>
I never said you were "lying"; I simply said you were UNABLE to
provide support for your contentions.

> > >
> > >(edit)>
> > > True, but when you donate money you're allowed to pick a cause. :-)
> > > > >
> > > > > Which brings us back to prioritizing and favoring.

Sure. How many years did rich men fund scolarships ONLY for other men?
:-)

> > > >
> > > > No, it means that women are out there raising money for what THEY want
> > > > to support. Where are the men?
> > >
> > > As far as raising money from private donors, men just aren't as
> > > inclined to do this as women are, for whatever reasons.
> > >>
> > So, better get crakin.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Women die younger from breast cancer than men of prostate, AND men get
> > > > > > > > breast cancer.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Why> > not put forth effort in those areas? I guess men are not as inspired
> > > > > > > > > > to do fundraisers?
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > They may not be, but it probably has little to do with lack of
> > > > > > > > > inspiration.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Sure it does. Get crackin, Ben. Before I leave in Jan. please provide
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > . some source of discrimination against boys
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Title IX. Tell me again how many girls sports programs were
> > > > > > > dismantled? Also, are we drugging the girls at the same clip we're
> > > > > > > drugging the boys?
> > > >
> > > > Parents, along with doctors decide what drugs children should have;
> > > > it's not up to you, Ben.
> > >
> > > Parents rely far too much on "expert" opinion, and sometimes will do or
> > > approve of things that they wouldn't do otherwise, simply because some
> > > authority figure recommended it.
> >
> > Ah, but so what?
>
> Then you agree. Again, good.
>
No, feminism and catering to girls has nothing whatsoever to do with
parents medical choices for their kids.

> > There's no problem at all with informing parents, and
> > there has been media attention provided about Ridalin.....so, there you
> > go. As to recommendations, I have no problem at all with parents of
> > children who disrupt the classroom, homeschooling or providing
> > independent study. It's all good.
>
> Single sex education would be the way to go.
>
With totally equal funding? Sure. I'm thrilled with the notion.> > >

> > > > It's not my fault if the parents of unruly boys decide to opt for drugs in order to keep them in school. Why> shoot the messenger here?
> > >
> > > Why would you think I'm shooting the messenger when I'm commenting on
> > > the message?
> >
> > I'm telling you that it isn't feminism that's pushing drugs on these
> > kids. It's their own parents.
>
> Oh, surely you have a study to prove this lol.

I don't need a study, Ben. Parents choose the medical care their kids
already receive, so your smirk doesn't help you here.
>
> (edit)> >
> > > Boys have equal rights.
>
> Then let's start enforcing them.
>
> >They're being enforced already. > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > Are> you seriously going to try and deny that there are more programs
> > > > > > for> > > girls than boys? How many men's resource centers do you see on
> > > > > > > campuses?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Resource Centers are sponsored by clubs, volunteers, and contributions,
> > > > > > BEN.
> > > > >
> > > > > So if I can show you that these organizations get money and resources
> > > > > from universities and from student dollars, you'll concede that I'm
> > > > > right?
> > > >
> > > > Grant money is handled on the same principle, Ben. If you have a
> > > > volunteer organization that requests funding, that organization can get
> > > > available funding. The problem you bitter boys have is that men are
> > > > not VOLUNTEERING and, thus, don't qualify for matching funds, or space
> > > > for their activities. Do you see how this works now?
> > >
> > > I see it doesn't answer my question, so it remains: will you or won't
> > > you?
> >

> > Sure it does answer your question. Those who volunteer and start
> > organizations may be qualified to receive funding for them. For
> > example, in my youngest son's last public school experience, there were
> > 5 kids who wanted to start a special science group for making bots, and
> > entering them in competitions. These kids and their parents and a couple of teachers started meeting
> > after school to do this and one of the teachers applied for some
> > scholarship money to help the group purchase supplies. They needed at
> > least 12 kids so the kids went about soliciting their classmates to
> > join the group, and 'voila' funding.
>
> I would argue that scholarship money--which by its nature targets
> specific purposes--differs from regular funding from the school itself.

You're free to argue that, but it's the same principle. You have to go
thru the granting process and prove up need in the application process.
You have to have people who are interested in the program you want
grant funded.


> The scholarship was probably supplied by an interested private party.
> You've still failed to answer the question explicitly, so you've
> answered it implicitly.

I've answered your many questions all along here. You just don't like
the answers which really makes you kind of a twitty bitter boy. You
used to do much better than this.
>
> > >>
> > > > > > Sports programs are paid for with education money.
> > > > >
> > > > > Sports programs are paid for by tax dollars, as approved by the voters.
> > > >
> > > > Sports funds come from the same funds from which educational dollars
> > > > are drawn. Most public schools are funded thru property taxes, with
> > > > the rich providing more endowed schools than the poor. But paying
> > > > English teachers is funded the same way the football team is funded.
> > > > :-)
> > >
> > > As are all the municipal workers in any given jurisdiction. You gloss
> > > over my point--if the voters didn't see any value to sports programs,
> > > they wouldn't vote for the budget.
> >
> > Fathers wanting to see football games on the weekends are not in
> > school. And so few boys to men become football players that it isn't
> > worth the tax dollars going into it.
>
> If the purpose of high school football was to create pro football
> players, I'd agree. We could also say the same of girl's field hockey
> and soccer.

Again, if each student were funded they could spend their educational
money on what they, themselves desired. Girls are really being
pigeon-holed into sports, when they might prefer to spend their own
educational dollars on other things. Plus, I always find it amusing
when bitter twitters say that girls don't "like" sports when school
districts build stadiums instead of swimming pools. :-) If you're
going to teach a child skills that will last a lifetime, you don't
teach it by sponsoring football or field hockey; you teach it by
providing things like tennis, swimming, weight training, aerobics, etc.
>
> > I know a dad who loved to watch
> > his son play football, and his son was injured in the program, so much
> > so, that now his son is all but braindead. This father is now lobbying
> > AGAINST football in schools as there are so many other things more
> > needed, like exercise for health, nutrition eduction, music, art, etc.
>
> You must have some singular-purpose schools in your area. The schools
> around here manage to provide all that as well as football. In fact,
> one of the problems is motivating enough students to participate in all
> the activities.

Ah, so they tell the girls they don't like sports and then fail to
build tennis courts and swimming pools? :-)
>
> > In fact, he feels that public schools would be better off building
> > swimming pools so that ALL the students get opportunity instead of a
> > few jocks.
>
> The students that want to participate in something here can, but not
> everyone in everything. As far as making the team goes, that's based
> on performance. That's not a bad lesson for kids to learn.
>
Team based sports are certainly not the only way to learn how to work
well in groups. :-) And what's wrong with a swim team? I'll tell you
what's wrong with it; fathers won't get to see their sons play
football. :-)>

> > Voters manage to keep the> principles separate and distinct. And,
> > mothers see the value in sports> programs as well as fathers.
> >
> > Mothers want to keep their boys involved in education.
>
> As do fathers. You'd be lying if you tried to claim that fathers would
> allow their children's educations to go to hell so they could play
> sports. And just for grins, did you ever hear about the woman in Texas
> who killed to get her daughter on the cheerleading squad? Think she
> was prioritizing education?

Why mention a freak to me....do you want me to talk about sons bashed
about by fathers when the kid plays poorly?
The point is that eventually, even dumb Americans are going to come to
the conclusion that kids need skills that will prepare them for real
life and that football does not fit the bill.

>
> > Pretending that
> > their sons are going to earn big bucks playing football is like winning
> > the lottery. :-) There are simply better choices out there.
>
> Kids can do more than one activity.
>
> >I will lobby against football, seeing that this won't help our nation's children grow up to compete against the Chinese. :-)

> > >> >
> > > > > I would bet you a large sum of money right now that if every single
> > > > > program not directly related to the classroom were to be removed, the
> > > > > excess money would either be eliminated from the budget or the
> > > > > teacher's unions would try and get it for their members.
> > > >
> > > > The schools could simply show what money was being spent in total, and
> > > > divi that up per student. Of course, teachers are the most underpaid
> > > > professionals, for their educational dollar, which is why you really
> > > > have to love kids if you're a teacher. But I'm ok with keeping the
> > > > per student dollar apart from the teacher salaries.
> > > >
> > > > > > If you don't like sharing, get it out of the schools.
> > > > >
> > > > > I share fine, Hy--I'm not the one taking programs apart to satisfy some
> > > > > immature notion of 'equality'.
> > > >
> > > > Equality is not an "immature notion", but.
> > >
> > > As applied by feminists, it certainly can be.
> >
> > How equal is too equal when it comes to funding?
>
> When you can't demonstrate how one group is harmed, but can demonstrate
> that another is.

You don't have to show harm to enforce equality, Ben. >
> > >
> > > > In fact, it's a principle
> > > > for which the western world is most fond. I suggest that bitter boys
> > > > like you find it "immature" only when women demand it. :-)
> > >
> > > I notice you snipped the two examples I gave you of 'equality' vs
> > > 'fairness', and gee, one of them involved a MAN making an immature
> > > demand. What were you afraid of?
> >
> > Are you talking about insurance policies based on the free market
> > rather than tax collected dollars for educaiton? It wasn't valid.
>
> Lame attempt to twist the example on your part. If you couldn't
> respond, you should have just said so.
>
I did respond. It's all over, Ben; even dumb Americans will be able
to see the bottom line eventually.


> > > > >

.

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