Re: Luftwaffe copies of Japanese planes
- From: "Geoffrey Sinclair" <gsinclairnb@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2008 11:16:52 -0400
<eunometic@xxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
On Mar 1, 3:56 am, "Tero P. Mustalahti" <termu...@xxxxxx> wrote:
Apparently the Luftwaffe were interested in Japan's Mitsubishi Ki-46-II
100 "Dinah" recce plane. Did they express serious interest in other
aircraft? Especially, in light of the successes at Pearl Harbor and
(sinking of Prince of Wales and Repluse).
The Ki-46 was an exceptional recce plane, but I can not think of any
other Japanese aircraft, which would have been similarly superior to
German developed ones. Th A6M did have an impressive range, but it was
not at all suited to German fighter tactics.
SNIP stuff about soviet fighters
As for bombers, the Japanese medium bombers were even more vulnerable to
interception than the standard German medium bombers. Their additional
range might have been handy in the Eastern Front and perhaps in the Med,
but without long range escorts their usefulness would have been rather
limited. SNIP stuff about manufacturing long range japanese fighters and
The Germans would have benefited from Japanese technology,
unfortunately their geographic separation made exchanges difficult.
Communications were going quite well until the Germans started a war
then started a war with the country between Germany and Japan.
The Japanese had developed laminar flow wing profiles, this was (I
believe) all their own work and owed nothing to Eastman Jacobs at the
USA's NACA that lead to the P-51 and I believe was complete by 1940.
From about 1942 onwards the technology is incorporated into severalJapanese aircraft. Many of these aircraft still had the exceptional
range of Japanese aircraft (about twice that of US medium bombers and
1.5 times that of the Germans) but now combined with armoring and
self sealing fuel tanks.
I like this, twice the range if US medium bombers huh?
Ah yes, of course, the US mediums were relatively short ranged for
their size, like 1,100 miles for the B-26 and 1,350 miles for the B-25
compared to the Japanese. Having more of a brief to be survivable.
The C6N mentioned below had a range in internal fuel of around
1,900 miles, the G4M without fuel protection had a range of 3,750
miles, which dropped to 2,700 miles when the protection was added.
The G4M came in at about two thirds the weight of the B-25 or
Your standard Ju-88A-4 came in about the same weight as the
US types (compared with the much lighter Japanese types) with a
standard range of 1,100 miles and a maximum range of 1,700 miles,
using external fuel. The He111H came in at about the same weight
bracket and had a standard range of 1,200 miles. The Do217E-2
again in the same weight bracket, did 1,430 miles on internal fuel and
1,740 miles with drop tanks.
So it will be interesting to see which German types have ranges
around 33% better than the American types before things like
external fuel and bomb bay fuel tanks are counted.
The RAAF history lists the B-26B as having a 1,800 mile
range with zero bomb load, the B-25 mark II at 1,975 miles.
The Germans had built laminar flow profiles but didn't like their
stability characteristics and nothing seems to have come of it; don't
know what came of the research (probably the talent was focused on the
supersonic stuffm and it is known that Prandl's report on the P-51
correctly indicated that the wing wasn't laminar in service due to
dirt etc) but it is documented in "a history of aeronautical research
in Germany" which is even on Google books. (German ww2 work was
apparently focused on active boundary layer suction and they were
trying to develop porous membranes)
The Japaneses passive laminar wings however seemed to have been very
G4M2 Betty from 1942 onwards had laminar flow wings and later models
The G4M2 was the laminar flow wing version, prototype flew
in November 1942. Production initiated in July 1943 and
deliveries began in November.
So "from 1942" means a prototype was flying by the end of the year
with combat service in 1944.
The armoured version was the G4M3, dropping wing fuel tanks
from 1,428 to 988 imperial gallons. Limited production began
in October 1944. Some 60 delivered by August 1945.
C6N Saiun, Nakajima 'Myrt'
The need for a high-speed carrier based reconnaissance aircraft
was unique and reflected the increasing Allied air superiority.
Actually in mid 1942 it was realised using the standard attack
bombers as scouts was not as effective as a dedicated reconnaissance
The C6N was an advanced design, with a small laminar flow-wing
with extensive flaps and slats. The operational need disappeared
when the carriers were sunk, and some C6N's were converted to
night fighters. 463 built.
The slats and flaps were to meet the low speed requirements, landing
speed of 70 knots.
The fuel was carried in the wings, four protected and two unprotected
tanks giving a total capacity of 299.2 imperial gallons.
Year: 1944 Crew: 3 Engines: 1 * 1460kW Nakajima Homare 21
Speed: 610km/h Ceiling: 10500m Range: 5310km
Engine problems meant only 19 prototypes and pre production types
had been built between March 1943 and April 1944.
Finally fitted with a reliable and more powerful engine it possessed a
range of around 3,300 miles with a 160.6 imperial gallon drop tank.
Normal range was 1,900 miles.
The trouble with the C6N was similar to most Japanese aircraft,
light construction, its empty weight was 6,500 pounds, for a three
man aircraft, the Fw190A-8 came in at 7,650 pounds. This is
despite the C6N being 2 metres longer and with 2 metres more
N1K2-J Shiden Kai (Violet Lightning Modified) and its laminar flow
wings. Considered among the finest fighters of the war.
The "2" version was redesigned to overcome the undercarriage
problems that had plagued the "1" version. It was considered
good by the allied opponents, the trouble is it came into production
in 1944 with a top speed of 370 mph at 18,375 feet. Which meant
the allied 1944 land based fighters had the speed to disengage when
required. The N1K2 closely matched the Hellcat in terms of top
speed, manoeuvrability and flight envelope.
The Ki.93 was first designed as a twin-engined long-range
fighter, but emphasis later shifted to a multi-role fighter-bomber.
The Ki. 93 looked very promising, with its laminar-flow wing,
powerful engines, sleek fuselage, extensive armour and 57mm gun.
But it was flown only once before an accident and bombing halted testing.
Basically the first flight was in April 1945.
Year: 1945 Crew: 2 Engines: 2 * 1970hp Mitsubishi Ha-214
Speed: 624km/h Ceiling: 12050m Range: 2000km
Armament: 1*g57mm 2*g20mm 1*mg12.7mm
So top speed of 388 mph using twin 2,400 HP engines.
Meantime the Grumman Tigercat was in production, with a pair of
2,100 HP engines and top speeds of between 445 and 460 mph,
depending on whether it was a single or twin seater and carried
I like the way the Japanese type is really promising.
J2M Raiden - Imperial Japanese Navy fighter that was intended to
replace the A6M Zero but was constantly delayed for technical
problems. Emphasis was on speed and protection over manuverability,
had armor, self sealing tanks, laminar flow wings, and carried 4 x
First flight was in March 1942, problems meant only 14 aircraft, including
three prototypes were delivered by March 1943. Another 141 by
March 1944. Top speed of between 362 and 382 mph depending on
"The Tripartite Pact of 27 September 1940 for military and technical
cooperation between Germany, Italy, and Japan required reciprocal
exchanges of raw materials, equipment, and personnel.
where the snipped text comes from.
By the way read the Magic decrypts of the conversations between
Japan and the Japanese embassy in Germany. One of the obstacles
to co-operation between Germany and Japan was the price the
Germans wanted for various technology.
The biggest area the Germans lost out on was the Japanese multi cavity
magnetron which was independently developed and built by Dr Shigeru
Nakajima in Japan and actually about 1 year ahead of Randall and Boots
work in the UK. They had the type 22 10cm surface search radars in
service on by 1942 initially about 100 were produced but the super-
regenerative receivers required skilled personnel so they were only
deployed in larger ships.
The type 22 has the 10 cm wavelength, sets in service in early 1942.
The web site gives the list of ships and the month of fitting.
Ironically it wasn't until 1944 that
incorporation of the German Rehbok auto calibration and a super
heterodyne circuit that they set could be widely deployed on subs and
destroyers, some 300 of the upgraded type 22 were produced.
Ah yes, somehow the Germans winning the day had to appear.
Wonder which reference this comes from?
The Japanese never deployed PPI sets but note that the Royal Navy only
had PPI centimetric radar from mid 1943 onwards.
By the way here is where the need for the Germans to be first comes
in, the RAF had PPI in service in 1940. Using the one built criteria.
So the RN, which deployed such displays later, is used as the
"British entry" it looks better for the axis powers.
The Germans had PPI
by 1940 on a single GEMA 'panorama' but it wasn't deployed till late
1943 with the sets only becoming common by mid 1944 since the antenna
needed to be so large with the large wavelengths in use.
Not to mention the shock of discovering how the H2S set worked.
irony is the Japanese struggling to build Wurzburg copies in 1945 even
as the Germans were just getting their own microwave sets in service.
The irony is the need for the Germans to be proved better could not
be resisted. The Wurzburgs arrived in Singapore on 31 August 1943
along with blueprints. The Japanese called their version the Ta-Chi 24
Mobil Anti-Aircraft Radar. They had other radars and it is not that
surprising it took until 1945 to set up a production line given the limits
of the Japanese electronic industry. See their aircraft radio fit outs
Remove the nb for email.
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