Re: Back to Feudalism in the Early Middle Ages

On Aug 31, 9:12 am, Christopher Ingham <christophering...@xxxxxxxxxxx>
wrote:

Why did the emperor of this most powerful army feel the need to appeal
to the papacy for aid after the Seljuk Turks regained Antioch,
inflicted a crushing defeat on the his forces at the battle of
Manzikert (1071), and advanced into Asia Minor?

Here again are the only points I’ve raised concerning the Byzantines:

(1) The Byzantine empire was radically diminished within fifty years
of Justinian’s death.

(2) After 600 Byzantium ceased to be “a pan-Mediterranean power and
major player on the broader European stage” (Heather).

(3) “It became in many ways an unwilling satellite of the Islamic
world, no longer substantially in charge of its own fate” (Heather).

(4) Other than for its brief resurgence c. 1000, Byzantine political
history is generally a chronicle of sustained decline.

You’ve evidently taken offense at these statements and expended a lot
of verbiage, but you’ve failed to show how any of them are wrong.

Perhaps the term “sustained decline” set you off. This was the
favorite theme of nineteenth-century historians, which many of their
modern counterparts have taken pains to criticize. Yet one might
attribute the lack of any important contributions  to science,
theology, philosophy, and literature by the Byzantines to the fact
that they were forced to expend the bulk of their resources in
perpetual defense of their borders.

Christopher Ingham

Chris, I really do not like having a discussion in which the other
person is defending a totally indefensible position and this
discussion is ongoing only to stroke egos. If you want to believe
what you need to believe, then, all the power to you. I disagree with
much of it, but then again, I just do not want to go into a lot of
verbiage. You have not even bothered to answer to some very detailed
information that I have given you.

Your statements are so off, they are actually discouraging any further
discussion. Considering that the Empire defeated both the Umayyad and
Abbasid Chaliphates, I found the statement that the "empire became an
unwilling satellite of the Islamic world" ridiculous to the extreme.
What is there to discuss about it? Does it mean that it was locked in
a long war against the Islamic world? I have no clue. In this
context, everybody is a satellite to everybody else. The statement is
simply preposterous and laughable and not worthy of any serious
consideration.

"Chronicle of sustained decline"? Considering that the Empire was on
the ascendant in the 8th century (mostly against the Umayyads),
suffered setbacks in the 9th (against the Abbasids) and then was
tremendously successful in the 10th and 11th centuries against the
Abbasids, the Bulgarians, the Rus and others, where is this record of
a sustained decline? The empire suffered a reverse in the late 11th
century against the Seljucks, but recovered mostly from the end of the
11th to the 12th century and even recovered Syria. Even when it was
faced with the disaster of the 4th crusade, its constituent parts were
still capable of defeating the Franks (as they did). Sustained
decline only set in in the 14th century but this had more to do with
continuous civil strife and revolution as well as deep theological
divisions (humanism vs. mysticism) that essentially masked political
forces. Even so, this period was amazingly productive in art (the
Byzantine Renaissance of the Palaiologian era). The Gibbonesque
opinions that you are espousing have been fully discredited (as you
yourself note) but you are willing to defend them here? I do not
understand this.

"Lack of any important contributions" is a put off to any discussion
one may even want to start. In theology? I am stunned considering
the theological movements there. Philosophy and literature? You must
be kidding (especially the literature part). Let's not even discuss
music and art, in which the Byzantine norms influenced Europe
extensively. Nobody would make the statement that Byzantium was as
productive as the Alexandrine period but there were many technological
advances in Byzantium in architecture, fortification, weaponry (let's
not forget Greek fire that played a key role in the first siege of
Constantinople), ship building and other naval architecture,
mechanization (the automata built for the emperors in the 9th and 10th
century are known only through descriptions), metal processing etc,
etc.

Listen, I do not want to change your views. I think that our time can
be more productively spent by not rehashing debates of the 19th
century. Don't you think so?

PS: You have the wrong information about Alexios I Comnenus. He did
not appeal to Urban for any help in the context you have mentioned.
The last thing he wanted was the crusades. He regularized his
relationships with the Pope with two issues in mind: deflecting the
ambitions of the Norman kingdom of Sicily (against which he fought
long wars) and a attracting substantial numbers of mercenaries for his
forces. ***The last thing he wanted was an organized military force
under the rulers he had just fought showing up in front of the gates
of Constantinople**. He shadowed these groups with his army until he
managed to extract certain promises and they he ferried them across
the Bosporus. He was quite eager to have them gone.

In any case, let's end this discussion
.

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