Re: QUESTION: did cave-men know more about chemistry than people in ?medieval times?

Tronscend <tronfuru@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Hi,

"Paul J Gans" <gans@xxxxxxxxx> skrev i melding
news:h7pbv9$g10$1@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx


What to call extinct technologies, like bronze?

Good question!

But I think it wanders a bit from the point. The history of
technology is replete with extinct techniques.

That was my original proposition, now embattled by mr. Black.

Not at all. You were, IIRC, claiming that we could not
reproduce the old products. We certainly can. We just
won't do it the way they did.


That isn't the
point. The point is to determine when something was, for
practical purposes, invented. As we've both noted, that's hard.

If it is at all possible...?
IIRC the steam engine, for instance, had a long row of predecessors,
with mr Watt being credited with the first workable one, partly because of
improved metallurgy. Like, nobody invented "the" watch, gun, engine,
computer, camera etc.
(to stick to machinery; not to mention wheels, carts, ships...)
This is Naomi "No Logo" Klein Avenue:
Idea to principle to mathematics to model to workable device
to market domination to brand.... When does a "device" "begin"?

This Weeks Puzzle:
Who first referred to the propulsion principle that would allow man
to overcome gravity and undertake flight in space?

Isaac Newton. One of this three laws is that for every action
there is an equal but opposite reaction.

By the way, the same thing applies to geographic discoveries.
The Vikings were very likely the first Europeans to visit the
Western Hemisphere, but in a very real sense, they did not
*discover* it.

Obviously, since the Norse expeditions to NA had no impact on Britain,
they had no "historical impact"...
And obviously, the Norse were not aware that they had discovered
a new "continent", hence they did not discover America in that sense.

But isn't that a bit like saying that Armstrong was not the first man on the
moon,
because nobody followed him to build a New New Amsterdam?

No.

What, then, do we think of Marco Polo? We do credit the Chinese with China,
a bit larger and more advanced than Genova at the time; while waiting for
the Portuguese to open the sea route around Africa before trade really
kicked in. Did he "discover China"? Hardly. What did he do?

He went travelling and, on his return, dictated his tales to
a companion who had the work published. It proved to be
very popular.

We certainly do not credit the native Americans with discovering
America. Why? Because that knowlege was not useful to Europeans
until they repeated the discovery in 1492. Why Eurpeans? Because
mainstream westerners trace their history NOT back through the
aboriginal populations here, but through the Eurpeans who settled
here after 1492.

The entire business is replete with complexities.

... or Eurocentrism....?
(or some other nasty un-PC ism involving white people, the West,
Imperialism, or, if nothing else helps, Patriarchy?)

No. I don't think that is true. The dominant culture in
the US, like it or not, derives from Europe and in particular
from England. That influence has been falling off in the
past 50 years, but is still clearly present.

If one's point
of view changes, so does one's understanding of when something
was discovered or invented.

Interesting. The Rhetorical Theory of Science.
POV comes before and determines the facts (scil. "facts"),
or at least before the understanding. How very Giambattista Vico.

Facts? I don't believe I used the word. It is very slippery.

--
--- Paul J. Gans
.

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