Re: Black Death timeline

SolomonW <SolomonW@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
In article <gf7uu1$kuh$12@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>, gans@xxxxxxxxx says...
SolomonW <SolomonW@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx > wrote:
In article <BbOdnZIotbp32YvUnZ2dnUVZ_oWdnZ2d@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>,
pj@xxxxxxxxxx says...

"Peter Jason" <pj@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:l_idnf1s5LOs3ovUnZ2dnUVZ_umdnZ2d@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

"SolomonW" <SolomonW@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx > wrote in message
news:MPG.2380e715ccadb8e598971f@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
In article <gf4q1k$4ph$13@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>,
gans@xxxxxxxxx says...
SolomonW <SolomonW@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx > wrote:
In article
<wbSdnVV1F8QwTI7UnZ2dnUVZ_u-dnZ2d@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>,
pj@xxxxxxxxxx says...
Plague is transmitted from rodent to humans by the
bite of
an infected flea vector.


Several problems with the speed of the spread of black
death might be
explained if birds could be a carrier too. Say if the
plague could be
transmitted from a bird to a flea, human or rodent.

Then as you say by fleas using rodents and humans.

One must be careful here. The disease spread at the
rate
of human travel. No problem there at all.



Birds would simplify some of the mysteries of how quickly
it spread and
some of the locations.


Many fleas can live off many different hosts including
birds
particularly if they are desperate. So I do not see it as
a big ask.

Please do a google search on birds fleas and diseases.

This book maybe interesting too.

http://books.google.com.au/books?id=0gsPc5lk7_UC&pg=PA850&lpg=PA850
&dq=birds+carry+desease++fleas&source=web&ots=mu2czHfSzc&sig=SQa6cbsH7Ap
SFsJYVbKsdROvSw0&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=8&ct=result


What about cats? They're always about.


PS
http://books.google.com.au/books?id=Cl2dLK5S5OgC&pg=PA98&lpg=PA98&dq=fleas+%22cats%22&source=web&ots=_74XbFQyJQ&sig=iSWasp_1y9lHP8CZJBPDQ-_wrkM&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=10&ct=result#PPA97,M1





Interesting. Dogs can also spread plague. A flea can live off many
different animals.

What I find so interesting about birds is they can travel great
distances across the sea fast.

Please stop.

If you tell me I am wrong, I will stop instantly.

The way to do this is to do a bit of reading first.
One could start at the Center for Disease Control
of the US government at:

http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/dvbid/plague/

and then get a library copy (interlibrary loan may be
necessesary) of Ole J. Benedictow's "The Black Death
1346-1353" since he discusses all aspects of the Black
Deaths' transmission, history, probable origins, etc.

I say this because there are always folks around who
simply cannot accept the scientific and academic
consensus on a given issue. And while that consensus
may not always be right, it is the way to bet if you
are just becoming introduced to a subject.

All areas, the carriers, the rate of spread, the possible
alternative ideas, etc., have been studied. But since
the subject is romantically attractive, one still reads
all sorts of assertions about it that are just plain
wrong.

For example: it is said that the disease could not have
been spread by rats because then there would have been
reports of dead rats. Guess what? If one looks at
the original sources (Rosemary Horrox has a collection
of them in her book cleverly named "The Black Death")
one finds that dead rats *are* reported.

If one goes to Amazon and searches for "The Black Death",
the top 10 titles that come up are all worth reading.
(It is only 9 books because Philip Ziegler's book is on
the list twice in two editions). I've read six of them
since this is a topic that interests me.


First, there are many different fleas. Each species is rather
particular about its hosts.

My understanding is fleas prefer certain hosts but if they cannot find
such a host they will jump species.

Correct, but they do not do well on "foreign" hosts. And
since infected fleas die and since the foreign host may not
become infected, very little of the disease seems to be spread
in this way.

Second, not every flea can actually
*TRANSMIT* the plague bacillus, Yersina pestis.

The biology of disease transmission is not nearly as simple
as "a flea can live off many different animals."

A lot of strange stuff has been written about the Black Death.
It also attracts a lot of strange theories from folks who like
to think that there is a major mystery in where it came from
and how it spread.

In fact a fairly enormous amount of information has survived
about its 1347 appearance in Europe. Correlating it all and
reducing it to consumable proportions is not the sort of thing
that can be done by just letting one's imagination fly.

Brainstorming is often interesting and rewarding.

Yes it is. Shall we brainstorm about where human babies
come from? I'll vote for storks. No, I'm not trying to
be snide. I'm trying to make the point that it is hard
to brainstorm in an area where many of the answers are
already known.

--
--- Paul J. Gans
.

Relevant Pages

  • Re: Black Death timeline
    ... explained if birds could be a carrier too. ... Say if the plague could be ... transmitted from a bird to a flea, ... The disease spread at the rate ...
    (soc.history.medieval)
  • Re: Black Death timeline
    ... explained if birds could be a carrier too. ... Say if the plague could be ... transmitted from a bird to a flea, ... The disease spread at the rate ...
    (soc.history.medieval)
  • Re: Black Death timeline
    ... explained if birds could be a carrier too. ... transmitted from a bird to a flea, ... The disease spread at the rate ... Modern models of epidemics produce ...
    (soc.history.medieval)
  • Re: Black Death timeline
    ... explained if birds could be a carrier too. ... transmitted from a bird to a flea, ... The disease spread at the rate ... Modern models of epidemics produce ...
    (soc.history.medieval)
  • Re: Black Death timeline
    ... transmitted from a bird to a flea, ... Birds would simplify some of the mysteries of how quickly ... *TRANSMIT* the plague bacillus, Yersina pestis. ... A lot of strange stuff has been written about the Black Death. ...
    (soc.history.medieval)
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