Re: The high German consonant shift
- From: Larry Swain <giles@xxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 14:45:46 -0500
Michael Kuettner wrote:
Larry Swain schrieb :
<snip>
MOre of a process, thought to have begun somewhere between the 3rd and 5th centuries AD and still not quite complete with the first written text in the ninth century.
TO answer your second paragraph, neither. Essentially certain sounds continued to move forward in where they were pronounced in the mouth: (or voiceless stops became voiceless fricatives or affricates, the voiced stops became voiceless)) p became ff or pf (apfel, schiff),
In Southern German dialects. Äppelwoi (Apfelwein).
Not in the 9th century as far as we know, however. And all southern dialects? I know its common in Frankfurt, but then Frankfurt linguistically is Central, not South or High, and so we'd expect to find a mixture of Low and High consonants, not to mention the influence of the descendants of Franconian dialects, and in fact we do. More importantly though, modern dialectical usage has nothing to do with 9th century usage and the Consonantal Shift in Old High German which the examples I gave are but illustrative examples.
t became ss or ts, (essen, Zeit), k became hh, (ich),
In SG dialects. Ikke = ich in Berlinese
Not that I've encountered. What southern dialects specifically? I've encountered this in Northern Dialects, i. e. Low German (Plattdeutsch).
No one, least of all me, has claimed that German dialects have remained static in the last 1200 years. I simply attempted to explain the Consonantal Shift and give some illustrations, not give a detailed diachronic history of Germany dialects up to the present.
b became p (Bavarian pist for German bist, you are),
Could you point me to one Bavarian with that speech deficit ?
See above. Why would it be a speech deficit?
d became t, (Vater, Tag),
In SG dialects, Vaddä (Hamburgian for father) ...
Now I know you're confused. Hamburg is decidedly not south, but north. The only think south about it is that its at the southern end of the Jutland Penninsula. So methinks that your "SG" dialects and examples are actually all NORTHERN dialects, which is where we'd expect to find ikke, Vadda, etc.
etc....This is a process that began in Proto-Indo-European and happens to be the south (and so upper, because higher altitude, high) German version: Dutch, Frisian, Old English was not affected.
Neither were the Northern dialects in Germany.
I said that. THe "norther dialects" or Low German were a separate language and descend from Old Saxon, not Old High German, it is the latter that experienced the second Consonantal Shift, not the former, and hence is the topic in hand.
Thus not imported sounds from either Latin or from local dialetc, but simply a sound change within the language itself.
The examples above show the change in the South, for the most part.
Which is what I said.
PS : You've forgotten s -> "sch", like the "s" in "since", and the "s" in "sure".
Thus Sch-tock in SG, S-tock (Stock = stick) in the Northern parts.
No, I didn't forget it. This sound change occurred in the early modern period at the beginning of what we call New High German, not during the Consantal Shift that occurred in the early Medieval period.
.
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