Re: Definition of "Medieval."


----- Original Message -----
From: "Renia" <renia@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Newsgroups: soc.history.medieval
Sent: Friday, June 22, 2007 11:45 AM
Subject: Re: Definition of "Medieval."


Uwe Müller wrote:
"Renia" <renia@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:f5er12$12d$1@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Michael Kuettner wrote:

"Larry Swain" <theswain@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:3bGdnbwjF6GbseXbnZ2dnUVZ_viunZ2d@xxxxxxxxxx


OK, before we discuss further :

You have jumped in lately in this discussion, so you seem to have
misunderstood my points.

I'll just resume them again.

a) I'm against the use of the term "Dark Ages".
But that term seems to be used by Anglo-Saxon posters like Renia
for a period of time in Britain or worse - as an synonyme for
Medieval times or "Middle Ages".

It's not synonymous with "Middle Ages" or Medieval times. It's
pre-medieval and doesn't relate to the supposed ignorance of its people,
as Paul Gans thinks, but to the comparative lack of written records and
archaeological evidence between the fall of the Roman Empire and the
Norman invasion of England. (Note the word "comparative".)


What do you mean by a "lack of ... archaeological evidence"? And if it
is a
comparative lack, with which period would you compare it?

Any period.

Well compared with the Palaeolithic, Anglo-Saxon evidence is abundant. And
AFAIK it does not compare bad with the early neolithic either. If you take
into account, that many Anglo-Saxon sites are still settled, and can not be
researched archaeologically, the comparison seems somewhat premature.

Britain is blessed with considerable Roman and
pre-historical archaeology, for example. Many village and town houses
are found to have medieval and Anglo-Saxon foundations. There is
archaeological evidence for the "Dark Ages" and continuing archaeology
produces more all the time but the significance is not always
understood. For example, many suppositions are made regarding religious
rituals. Without supporting evidence, they can only be suppositions.

You asserted a lack of archaeological evidence, not a lack of understanding
of archaeological evidence. That would be far more easy to cure than your
former statement.


And this is the problem. There is very little supporting evidence
particularly written evidence. We have Roman shopping lists and medieval
tax returns but little in between until Beowolf and the ASC. The Dark
Ages were a time of little national cohesion in a land ruled by
different tribes in a collection of kingdoms.

Lets say, there is little written evidence, full stop. There is no lack of
other evidence.



Would you have the medieval period for England start with 1066?

I wouldn't put an exact date on it though you could say it followed the
Anglo-Saxon period. The Middle Ages are not defined by calendar. The
events of 1066 depend on events prior to that and depend on events in
other countries.

You said the Dark ages were pre-medieval and lasted from the fall of the
Roman empire to the Norman invasion, that wasn't my idea.


For a British Government description of the Dark Ages, the Anglo-Saxon
period and the Middle Ages, see:

http://www.royal.gov.uk/output/Page14.asp

Well, they even believe in King Arthur: "King Arthur, a larger-than-life
figure, has often been cited as a leader of one or more of these kingdoms
during this period, although his name now tends to be used as a symbol of
British resistance against invasion.".

Is a lack of preservation of written documents the one factor
adequately describing that period? From a historiographic point of view yes,
but there is more to history than written sources.

have fun

Uwe Mueller



.

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