Re: (some) Old Templars do not die/Long and Speculative


<am05@xxxxxxxxxxx> schrieb im Newsbeitrag news:1141056405.237891.170810@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Michael Kuettner wrote:
<am05@xxxxxxxxxxx> schrieb im Newsbeitrag news:1140920545.816588.201380@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Michael Kuettner wrote:
<am05@xxxxxxxxxxx> schrieb im Newsbeitrag news:1140717902.052472.220340@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

<snip>
But, IMO, the prozelytizing people are, in
general, too dumb and too self-centered to care about other peoples'
reactions.

Indeed.



On this background even Brunhilda deserves some credit: at least she
sticks to the medieval subjects.

Not really. She just repeats old bull***,

Yes, but at least this is (at least formally) a medieval bull***. And
don't forget the
entertaining component. :-)

Entertaining the first 10 times; then the entertainment is gone ...

eg :
Recently she has reposted that the Habsburger claimed descent from Genghis Khan
and Jesus Christ.

They did? Wouldn't it be a little bit mutually-exclusive ...er...
ideologically. The Mongols being
more or less comers from the Hell and G's message (you know, killing
all enemies, raping their women and taking posession of their horses)
was not being exactly in line with the teachings of Christianity.
Well, I'm not a great specialist of Christianity so I can easily be mistaken.

It also wouldn't do to go to the pope and state : "Hi, I'm the great-grandson
of your employer !" ...

Besides, in the views of the recent discoveries ('Da Vincy Code', this
ultimate source on Christ's
descendents), all C's descendents were nice-looking and well-shaped
brunettes who resided in
France. While France as an exclusive habitat can be questioned,

Not really.
"Living like god in France" seems to be an old memory ... ;-)

the appearences of the Habsburgs
clearly could be considered an insult to both Jesus (based on authentic
photo located in Turin) and

I thought it was just a negative ...

Maria-Magdalena (whose posed Leonardo for her portrait).

Because of Rom.-Cath. oppression he had to call her "My Lisa" ...

As for G's parentage, while we can't put as much trust on Chinese
paintings of Ghengis and his descendents
as one the sources mentioned above, none of these paintings show people
with a lower lip hanging well below chin line.

We don't know for sure whether the things hanging from Mongolian faces were
beards or lips ...

Hopefully, my comments on Habsburgs' appearences do not hurt you
feeings as Osterreichish (did I manage to spell it properly?) patriot.
:-)

"Oesterreichischer Patriot".(Oe = umlaut).
My patriotism leaves something to be desired and living outside of Austria
doesn't improve it.
But at least Karls lip doesn't hang yet and the lower lip of the ruler here doesn't
either (yet).
;-)

So, on a purely factual base, we have to reject this joined parentage.

Since when is Moronsdottir swayed by facts ? ;-)


It's rather annoying.

Which part of it? Christ or Ghengis? :-)

Oh, both are laughable.
But not after the third round ...



And her usual claims about EU law and inventing the internet; not very medieval.

Well, they are medieval in substance bnecause both are based on a pure
faith.

Yes, and sometimes I get medieval on her ass ...


BTW, in another thread she came up the link
to the (if I guessed the meaning of "ORDO SUPREMUS MILITARIS TEMPLI
HIEROSOLYMITANI" correctly) the OFFICIAL website of the Templars...
Quite entertaining site
(http://www.ordotempli.org/history_of_the_knights_templar.htm) which
can easily compete even with "Da Vinci Code" and "Holy Blood" as a source of
entertainment. Of course, she managed
to misread even it but digging it up should be appreciated.

I've just started to read that. It's a howler !

She's a few ants short of a picnic.
She cites ultra-right propaganda sites

Well, at least she is not ultra-liberal. :-)

OTOH, political sympathies of an idiot do not make too much of a
difference...

and fruitcake links because she googles
for something and doesn't understand what is written there ....

Not even that. She can't do a primitive job of a proper quoting. As I
understand, her
system works as following. She comes with some name (does not matter
how), then
looks for all mentioning of the similar names in vaguely related time
and space and
then makes an assumption that one or many findings apply to "her"
person. I'm really
glad that she is not interested in the French history: all these
numerous Louis'es (not to
mention that the name was widely used not only by the kings) would be
really confusing
to her.

Just wait until she wants to prove that the Norse were the founders of France ....

[]

Yes; but the leadership was composed entirely of (French) knights....

Not a big surprise if you think about it. After all, most of the rulers
and top aristicrates of the Outremer were French. Which, perhaps, can explain a
dwindling enthusiasm in the rest of Europe (besides expences, high
risk, etc.).

The "French" part was humour.
The point was about them being "knights", who weren't known for being
too competent in money-management as a rule.

Probably at least some of them were smart enough to hire a competent
accountant.

Yes, the surviving ones certainly were.

Would be an interesting topic how inflation killed off the lesser nobles in
the HRE, eg.

It did? I thought that this was Nappy's function. :-)

Not for the lesser nobles.
They were reduced to their titles at his time.
Imagine the scenario :
Little knight X had three people who had to pay him taxes.
Those taxes were 3 bushels of corn from each.
5 bushels he needed for himself, 4 were surplus which he
could trade.
When the economy switched to money, 1 bushel was worth
2 Pfennige (fictious prices).
Knight demanded payment in money instead of bushels.
That was fixed by contract, ie. instead of getting 9 bushels of corn
he got 18 Pfennige.
But then the prices for a bushel went up while his take was fixed ...


As we've seen, extortion by rulers was a usual risk for bankers.
Yes, and it seems a little bit strange that the rulers (including those
with at least some brains, like Phillip) could not figure out the whole idea of
the chicken who is laying the golden eggs. I'd assume that they simply did
not expect to run out of chicken.

Because nobles weren't really good with money.
Cash was something which had to be provided by others ...

As Louis XIV put it to Colbert, "If you can't find a source of money,
I'll hire somebody who can."

Exactly ;-)



Philip used a direct approach to his cash - flow - problems (like someone
without cash and a country instead of a pointy stick).

As it was in the tragedy "Death of Ivan the Terrible":

Ivan (about Stefan Batory): Sejzm refused to give King a subsidy. It is
laughable:
the subjects are refusing to give money to their own ruler!
Jester: Yes, little Daddy, our country is quite different. When you
need something,
grab, grab, and you have it!

That sums it up rather nicely.


A beauty of an absolute vs constitutional monarchy. Ivan simply could
not grasp a substance of the problem. :-)

Like certain Habsburger couldn't understand politics.
1848 :
Lackey : Your Majesty, the people are opposing your reign !
H : Are they allowed to do that ?


Would the rise of the burghers have been possible if the nobles had been
smarter ?


I think so. After all, the burghers were responsible for providing most
of the necessities of life.... Including the money. :-)

Ah, but if the nobles had been smarter, they wouldn't have needed the
burghers...

The Fugger went down because another king didn't honour his debts ...

But at least, thanks to the changing times and habits, the Fuggers
ended up with the princely and/or dukish titles.

But they lost their trading empire. Talk about over-expansion and the inflation
brought about by the gold from the Amaericas.

Of course. And, IIRC, this also started problems which led to the
English Revolution, downfall of Spain as a superpower, etc.

There are certain similarities between Spain and the Soviet Union :
Military power, no infra-structure, complete breakdown...

[]
<snip>
Ah, but Lizzy forgot the Marlboroughs ...

I thought that John (?) Churchill was teh 1st Duke of M. Are you
referencing to some earlier species?

I think you're right. Now I'll have to think whom I was referring to, dammit !

You probably meant that the M's (John and Sarrah Churchill) were
involved in the
betrayal of Jackob II ...oops... in a "Glorious Revolution" (what was
glorious or
revolutionary in it, only the Brits can tell....).

I won't even touch that subject with so many Brits here ... ;-)
<snip>
I was mostlt referencing to Louis' and Nappy absense of taste of
furnishing, paintings and literature... :-)

You know, these combinations of gold, pink and blue and a LOT of their
portraits.

I've managed to forget about that after several years of expensive therapy ... ;-)

Phillip was something of the kind in the area of the publich
executions...

Well, the flames made him look almost handsome ...



<snip>
Except something heretical.

A life-size effigy of Ted Kennedy .... Oops, Behemot? :-)

Baphomet.

Whatever, as long as there is a semblance to Teddy: face
infernally red, huge belly, looks fiersome, makes loud incomprehensible
sounds...

That would be Buddha on steroids ? ;-)

Buddha was peaceful and silent. :-(

Not after steroids ...
;-)

<snip>
I really have to look at that site.

Please, do.

I'm laughing my ass off !




Why _would_ they have something heretical and what could that be in
practical terms?

See above.
Spirituality measurable in practical terms ?
How does one do _that_ ;-)

Easily. Depending on place, it would be either % of alcohol or proof.
Look at any 'spiritual' bottle. :-)

Ah, you believe that there is proof in Vodka ? ;-)

If one can believe teh Romans.... :-)

In vino veritas

Ah, In vodka plus veritas ? ;-)

Perhaps the T's discovered secret of making distilled liquors? This
would explain a lot, including eagerness of Phillip's interrogators and P's
own persistence: this would be a source of a steady income even in France.

If they had, they would have been drunk as skunks; a fine tradition inside
monasteries even today .... ;-)

Posession of this secret can explain why it was so easy to arrest all
the Templars
in France.... It was Friday, end of a business week and they all were
drunk silly...

And the sober ones were caught while coming back from shopping; a baguette
under one arm and a bottle of wine under the other ....





the fact that one of the Grand Masters (perhaps de Molais himself) had
some
relatives who descended from Languedock. Well, AFAIK, so did one of the
Phillip's main henchmen, Guyom Nagarais (sp).

Ah, Mont Segur again ....

How could one miss THIS?

Well, the early GPS systems had some bugs -
once a crusade ended in Byzantinium, eg ...

The system was probably powered by a beta verion of Microsoft
software....

Have you ever seen a piece of ***^Wsoftware from them above a beta-version ?

I as a SW-developer especially like the bugs^Wfeatures they introduce with
each new version of their C++ compilers ....


<snip>
Well, the same argument could be made about the Romans.
Innovators, yes. Inventors ? No, AFAIK.

Weren't they the 1st guys who started serious use of concrete and
arches?

Yes, that's one thing; they've also invented some other odd things.

Like strangling the horses?

And garum ...

?
Also known as liquamen; take little fish, put them in a barrel, bury it and let
the contents rot. Dig it up again after a year and use the sauce to spice up
your dishes ...



(Portulan - cement for underwater construction, eg).
I've never said that they've invented ZERO ;-)
They were very good engineers and innovators.
But not inventors.

Well, they invented a legion. Probably.

Well, innovation ...

Throwing politicians off the rock.... Not sure that they
invented this but it was clearly a right way to go. What a
pity that this Roman <whatever> is forgotten...

Custom ?

It would also help to kill public servants who have betrayed the public
instead of paying them pensions ... ;-)

[]
And even with a good commander (grand master) they were just not
in command of the strategy in Outremer.

Agree. The place seems to be overpopulated with the mad dogs who would
destroy any chance for success.

They went over there for a crusade; no long-time vision, no nothing (on part of
the crusaders).

Glory, glory, glory! Perhaps with a touch of loot...

And, as important, all sins were forgiven...


<snip>
Ah yes. IIRC, Louis VII was almost as brilliant as St.Louis.

As can be seen by the Danish caricatures, people full of faith seldom
need brains as long as viiolence works ... ;-)
<snip>
See my remark above about Louis VII. The Templars saved his ass
by taking command of his army.

I was under impression that there was not too much left to take command
of...

But they brought the rest through while inflicting damage on the enemy ...

Classic example of a military genius (this has nothing to do with the
Templars):
1st, screw things up really bad and then extricate small protion of
your force out
of the mess of your own doing. Nappy was a supreme master of this but
there
were also numerous lesser talents all over the history...

Ramses at Khardesh comes to mind ...



<snip>
Your daughters dog would get my vote ... ;-)

And my: he clearly prefers my style of a belly rubbing (when the Beast
was visiting, he galloped to the door when I was back from work, then
was on his back with the paws in the air doing that "Rub my belly!"
routine).
So I'd have a chance to land a cushy govermental job (Presidential
Belly Rubbing Secretary). :-)

I'm now "Pretzel-Eating-Advisor" ;-)



<snip>
Did they discover an underground tunnel from Swtzerland to Greenland
(or Vinland)?

Not yet ...

I wonder why....

Well, absense of evidence isn't evidence of absense ;-)


<snip>
I still don't geddit ...


If you are a military commander and _all_ your subordinates are trying
to give you advice ....

Ah; just like the saying in Germany (re. soccer) : 11 players and 40 million trainers ...

Now, you got it! :-)

Ah, OK.

<snip Richelieu>

Well, what sense would it make (adventure-wise) to make d'Artagnian a
client of
the most powerful man in France at the beginning of the book? Where is
the challenge?

Well, R. was also the most evil one in the beginning.
In the end he became a human being; what did Dumas wanted to say, is my
question ...


The _bad_ R can be found in Alfred de Vigny's (sp) book.

Well, R. was not a nice person ...

Comparing to whom?

Myself and Attila, of course ;-)




<snip>
And liked to pay his debts publicly...

I wouldn't use the word "pay" in that context. ;-)

Will you be more happy with "repay"? :-)

"You wanted payment ? You had it coming ..." ;-)


We are in a complete linguistic agreement. :-)

That's always the problem in historical sciences;
one has to define the termini technici ... ;-)


<snip>
Yep; so - the island....

Greenland or Madagascar?

No, nearer to Kensington, of course ;-)

Martha Vyneards... Nice island and very close to Bahomet...

Isn't that "Teddy's carwash" nowadays or am I mixing things up ?


[]
Aaaarrrggghh ! Not that can of worms again !

Which can of worms do you prefer?

The introduction of silk-worms ?

Good. Due to the fact that I know zero on the subject, my posts would
not be restrained by unnecessary knowledge...

SO, where's your post on Nordic silkworms ?


You are evil ;-)

Just trying to keep things off us.policy.morons.alt....

No chance ....


I know :-(

We can but try ...

Cheers,

Michael Kuettner


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