Re: (some) Old Templars do not die/Long and Speculative

Michael Kuettner wrote:
<am05@xxxxxxxxxxx> schrieb im Newsbeitrag news:1140920545.816588.201380@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Michael Kuettner wrote:
<am05@xxxxxxxxxxx> schrieb im Newsbeitrag news:1140717902.052472.220340@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

AFAIK, this option was discussed. Besides, the Livonian Knights did
'merged' with the Teutonic.

We've discussed that before, AFAIR.
But if you don't remember, we'll discuss it again (just to prevent that ng
being renamed alt.politics.US ... ;-))

Oh, THAT drives me crazy. Why are people itching to discuss these
things in the places most inappropriate? Can it be some Templars influence?
(in choosing the wrong time and place even for the right things). :-)

Because they want to proselytize instead of discussing things ?

Of course. But this is kind of stupid because you don't have to
convince people who
are already in an agreement with you and it is somewhat presumptious to
assume
that you are capable to convince those in a disagreement with you that
you are
much smarter than you are. In both categories of people pushing
something down
their throats in an inappropriate time and place can only create an
irritation regardless
the substance of what you are preaching. But, IMO, the prozelytizing
people are, in
general, too dumb and too self-centered to care about other peoples'
reactions.




On this background even Brunhilda deserves some credit: at least she
sticks to the medieval subjects.

Not really. She just repeats old bull***,

Yes, but at least this is (at least formally) a medieval bull***. And
don't forget the
entertaining component. :-)

eg :
Recently she has reposted that the Habsburger claimed descent from Genghis Khan
and Jesus Christ.

They did? Wouldn't it be a little bit mutually-exclusive ...er...
ideologically. The Mongols being
more or less comers from the Hell and G's message (you know, killing
all enemies, raping
their women and taking posession of their horses) was not being exactly
in line with the teachings
of Christianity. Well, I'm not a great specialist of Christianity so I
can easily be mistaken.

Besides, in the views of the recent discoveries ('Da Vincy Code', this
ultimate source on Christ's
descendents), all C's descendents were nice-looking and well-shaped
brunettes who resided in
France. While France as an exclusive habitat can be questioned, the
appearences of the Habsburgs
clearly could be considered an insult to both Jesus (based on authentic
photo located in Turin) and
Maria-Magdalena (whose posed Leonardo for her portrait).
As for G's parentage, while we can't put as much trust on Chinese
paintings of Ghengis and his descendents
as one the sources mentioned above, none of these paintings show people
with a lower lip hanging well below
chin line.

Hopefully, my comments on Habsburgs' appearences do not hurt you
feeings as Osterreichish (did I manage to spell it properly?) patriot.
:-)

So, on a purely factual base, we have to reject this joined parentage.


It's rather annoying.

Which part of it? Christ or Ghengis? :-)



And her usual claims about EU law and inventing the internet; not very medieval.

Well, they are medieval in substance bnecause both are based on a pure
faith.


BTW, in another thread she came up the link
to the (if I guessed the meaning of "ORDO SUPREMUS MILITARIS TEMPLI
HIEROSOLYMITANI" correctly) the OFFICIAL website of the Templars...
Quite entertaining site
(http://www.ordotempli.org/history_of_the_knights_templar.htm) which
can easily compete even with "Da Vinci Code" and "Holy Blood" as a source of
entertainment. Of course, she managed
to misread even it but digging it up should be appreciated.

She's a few ants short of a picnic.
She cites ultra-right propaganda sites

Well, at least she is not ultra-liberal. :-)

OTOH, political sympathies of an idiot do not make too much of a
difference...

and fruitcake links because she googles
for something and doesn't understand what is written there ....

Not even that. She can't do a primitive job of a proper quoting. As I
understand, her
system works as following. She comes with some name (does not matter
how), then
looks for all mentioning of the similar names in vaguely related time
and space and
then makes an assumption that one or many findings apply to "her"
person. I'm really
glad that she is not interested in the French history: all these
numerous Louis'es (not to
mention that the name was widely used not only by the kings) would be
really confusing
to her.

[]

Yes; but the leadership was composed entirely of (French) knights....

Not a big surprise if you think about it. After all, most of the rulers
and top aristicrates of the Outremer were French. Which, perhaps, can explain a
dwindling enthusiasm in the rest of Europe (besides expences, high
risk, etc.).

The "French" part was humour.
The point was about them being "knights", who weren't known for being
too competent in money-management as a rule.

Probably at least some of them were smart enough to hire a competent
accountant.

Would be an interesting topic how inflation killed off the lesser nobles in
the HRE, eg.

It did? I thought that this was Nappy's function. :-)


As we've seen, extortion by rulers was a usual risk for bankers.
Yes, and it seems a little bit strange that the rulers (including those
with at least some brains, like Phillip) could not figure out the whole idea of
the chicken who is laying the golden eggs. I'd assume that they simply did
not expect to run out of chicken.

Because nobles weren't really good with money.
Cash was something which had to be provided by others ...

As Louis XIV put it to Colbert, "If you can't find a source of money,
I'll hire
somebody who can."




Philip used a direct approach to his cash - flow - problems (like someone
without cash and a country instead of a pointy stick).

As it was in the tragedy "Death of Ivan the Terrible":

Ivan (about Stefan Batory): Sejzm refused to give King a subsidy. It is
laughable:
the subjects are refusing to give money to their own ruler!
Jester: Yes, little Daddy, our country is quite different. When you
need something,
grab, grab, and you have it!

That sums it up rather nicely.


A beauty of an absolute vs constitutional monarchy. Ivan simply could
not
grasp a substance of the problem. :-)


Would the rise of the burghers have been possible if the nobles had been
smarter ?


I think so. After all, the burghers were responsible for providing most
of the
necessities of life.... Including the money. :-)

The Fugger went down because another king didn't honour his debts ...

But at least, thanks to the changing times and habits, the Fuggers
ended up with the princely and/or dukish titles.

But they lost their trading empire. Talk about over-expansion and the inflation
brought about by the gold from the Amaericas.

Of course. And, IIRC, this also started problems which led to the
English Revolution,
downfall of Spain as a superpower, etc.

[]
<snip>
Ah, but Lizzy forgot the Marlboroughs ...

I thought that John (?) Churchill was teh 1st Duke of M. Are you
referencing to some earlier species?

I think you're right. Now I'll have to think whom I was referring to, dammit !

You probably meant that the M's (John and Sarrah Churchill) were
involved in the
betrayal of Jackob II ...oops... in a "Glorious Revolution" (what was
glorious or
revolutionary in it, only the Brits can tell....).





<snip>
Yes, a really nice guy ;-)

It looks like Phillip just liked to do things in a noisy way just to
show who is the boss.

Yeah, the French aplomb ...

And, quite often, an absense of a good taste (look at Louis XIV and
Nappy; just as they, Phillip did not know when to stop). :-)

DeGaulle certainly kept that tradition ;-)

I was mostlt referencing to Louis' and Nappy absense of taste of
furnishing,
paintings and literature... :-)

You know, these combinations of gold, pink and blue and a LOT of their
portraits.

Phillip was something of the kind in the area of the publich
executions...



<snip>
Except something heretical.

A life-size effigy of Ted Kennedy .... Oops, Behemot? :-)

Baphomet.

Whatever, as long as there is a semblance to Teddy: face
infernally red, huge belly, looks fiersome, makes loud incomprehensible
sounds...

That would be Buddha on steroids ? ;-)

Buddha was peaceful and silent. :-(




AFAIK, nobody knows where that word came from.
And that gave rise to all those "secret knowledge" theories.
Well, I've invented "tutruktion"; now I just need to be disbanded by
the church to found my own masons ... -;P

The ...errr.... official site of T's (links above) traces their
religious affiliations all the way to Ancient Egypt (I wonder how many people in XII century
Egypt even heard about the ancient gods...). As I said, it is very
entertaining reading.

I really have to look at that site.

Please, do.




Why _would_ they have something heretical and what could that be in
practical terms?

See above.
Spirituality measurable in practical terms ?
How does one do _that_ ;-)

Easily. Depending on place, it would be either % of alcohol or proof.
Look at any 'spiritual' bottle. :-)

Ah, you believe that there is proof in Vodka ? ;-)

If one can believe teh Romans.... :-)

In vino veritas

Perhaps the T's discovered secret of making distilled liquors? This
would explain a lot, including eagerness of Phillip's interrogators and P's
own persistence: this would be a source of a steady income even in France.

If they had, they would have been drunk as skunks; a fine tradition inside
monasteries even today .... ;-)

Posession of this secret can explain why it was so easy to arrest all
the Templars
in France.... It was Friday, end of a business week and they all were
drunk silly...





the fact that one of the Grand Masters (perhaps de Molais himself) had
some
relatives who descended from Languedock. Well, AFAIK, so did one of the
Phillip's main henchmen, Guyom Nagarais (sp).

Ah, Mont Segur again ....

How could one miss THIS?

Well, the early GPS systems had some bugs -
once a crusade ended in Byzantinium, eg ...

The system was probably powered by a beta verion of Microsoft
software....


<snip>
Well, the same argument could be made about the Romans.
Innovators, yes. Inventors ? No, AFAIK.

Weren't they the 1st guys who started serious use of concrete and
arches?

Yes, that's one thing; they've also invented some other odd things.

Like strangling the horses?

And garum ...

?


(Portulan - cement for underwater construction, eg).
I've never said that they've invented ZERO ;-)
They were very good engineers and innovators.
But not inventors.

Well, they invented a legion. Probably.

Well, innovation ...

Throwing politicians off the rock.... Not sure that they
invented this but it was clearly a right way to go. What a
pity that this Roman <whatever> is forgotten...

[]
And even with a good commander (grand master) they were just not
in command of the strategy in Outremer.

Agree. The place seems to be overpopulated with the mad dogs who would
destroy any chance for success.

They went over there for a crusade; no long-time vision, no nothing (on part of
the crusaders).

Glory, glory, glory! Perhaps with a touch of loot...


<snip>
Ah yes. IIRC, Louis VII was almost as brilliant as St.Louis.

As can be seen by the Danish caricatures, people full of faith seldom
need brains as long as viiolence works ... ;-)
<snip>
See my remark above about Louis VII. The Templars saved his ass
by taking command of his army.

I was under impression that there was not too much left to take command
of...

But they brought the rest through while inflicting damage on the enemy ...

Classic example of a military genius (this has nothing to do with the
Templars):
1st, screw things up really bad and then extricate small protion of
your force out
of the mess of your own doing. Nappy was a supreme master of this but
there
were also numerous lesser talents all over the history...



<snip>
Your daughters dog would get my vote ... ;-)

And my: he clearly prefers my style of a belly rubbing (when the Beast
was visiting, he galloped to the door when I was back from work, then
was on his back with the paws in the air doing that "Rub my belly!"
routine).
So I'd have a chance to land a cushy govermental job (Presidential
Belly Rubbing
Secretary). :-)



<snip>
Did they discover an underground tunnel from Swtzerland to Greenland
(or Vinland)?

Not yet ...

I wonder why....


<snip>
I still don't geddit ...


If you are a military commander and _all_ your subordinates are trying
to give you advice ....

Ah; just like the saying in Germany (re. soccer) : 11 players and 40 million trainers ...

Now, you got it! :-)




Imagine Richelieu as the grand master of the order and Richard I. as the commander-in-chief.
It's a little exaggeration, but you get my point , I guess ;-)


Yes, I can imagine. The Grand Master would end up as the Bad Guy in the
English literature. :-)

In the French literature, too. Dumas ....

Well, don't forget that d'Artagnian ended (in "3M") by joining
Richelieu's party and that in the
following books all 4M's called R "The Great Cardinal".

d'Artagnan got his patent as a musquetiere not in R's guard, AFAIR.

Yes, but he got it from R and it is quite clear from the text that he
became R's man
(even got friendly with Rochefourt (sp)).


It was signed by R. - but I know too little about Dumas to know what point
he wanted to make here ...

Well, what sense would it make (adventure-wise) to make d'Artagnian a
client of
the most powerful man in France at the beginning of the book? Where is
the challenge?


The _bad_ R can be found in Alfred de Vigny's (sp) book.

Well, R. was not a nice person ...

Comparing to whom?



<snip>
And liked to pay his debts publicly...

I wouldn't use the word "pay" in that context. ;-)

Will you be more happy with "repay"? :-)

"You wanted payment ? You had it coming ..." ;-)


We are in a complete linguistic agreement. :-)


<snip>
Yep; so - the island....

Greenland or Madagascar?

No, nearer to Kensington, of course ;-)

Martha Vyneards... Nice island and very close to Bahomet...


[]
Aaaarrrggghh ! Not that can of worms again !

Which can of worms do you prefer?

The introduction of silk-worms ?

Good. Due to the fact that I know zero on the subject, my posts would
not be restrained by unnecessary knowledge...


You are evil ;-)

Just trying to keep things off us.policy.morons.alt....

No chance ....


I know :-(

.

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