Re: Semiticisms anyone? More fun than tennis.

Martin Edwards wrote:
Tom P wrote:
Matt Giwer wrote:
The origin of the myth of a jewish people separate from the religion was started by the godless zionists. He also appears to know what the Torah is.

Don't you wish you knew the differences between the Torah and TANAKH, Giwer?

Have you actually read the book, Giwer? Or just this bit of pop history from "La Monde"?

The author claims below that "Horace, Seneca, Juvenal and Tacitus were
among the Roman writers who feared it" [Jewish "proselytising zeal"]. You wouldn't be able to quote the passages from those four Roman authors in which they expressed that Jewish "proselytising zeal," would you, Giwer?

Now explain how you think this bit of journalism resolves or explains the issues and questions you dodged in the post this "La Monde" article is your response to?

I repeat the issues and questions from that post below.

Giwer, you still haven't explained the radiocarbon dated 3rd century BCE copy of the book of Isaiah in Hebrew.

Are you going to take the position that Isaiah was written before the Torah, Giwer?

That is an asinine position that is contrary to all extant evidence, but go ahead and defend that position if you can, Giwer.

Or do you admit that the Torah is at least as old as the 4th century BCE, Giwer?

Of course, I haven't yet mentioned 4Q365, the Pentateuchal Paraphrase, radiocarbon dated to the 3rd century BCE. To paraphrase presumes an original text. One cannot paraphrase that which does not yet exist.

Oops, Giwer. The existence and AMS dating of 4Q365 means the Torah existed and had already been paraphrased and commented on by the 4th century BCE. No Greek in those texts, Giwer.

Yes, he is a little obtuse in not acknowledging that, but a century here and there is hardly the point, which is whether the Jews were an *ancient* people. All Herodotus knew about Palestine is that it had been ruled by Egypt, it was then ruled by Persia and there were some monuments scattered about. He does not say whether there were any cities there, yet this was the time when Ezra Pound and T. S. Eliot, oops, Ezra and Nehemiah, were trying to resurrect the true faith in the already substantial city of Jerusalem and having a lot of trouble with the natives.

Herodotus also made reference to circumcision in Book 2, and made that interesting reference to "Phoenicians, with Syrians of Palestine" contributed 300 triremes to the fleet of Xerxes in Book 7, didn't he?

Josephus seems to have thought Herodotus meant Jews, but we realize Josephus must not only be read against others, but against himself, don't we?

While there may not exist conclusive evidence that Jerusalem was a Jewish or Hebrew or Judaic city earlier than the 4th century BCE, there is certainly conclusive evidence of a city on that location going back to at least 1000 BCE. Do you wish to dispute that?

Have you ever read the third definition of torture at http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/torture?

It reads: "distortion or overrefinement of a meaning or an argument."

To me, Classical Antiquity is ancient. To most of the Western World,I think, Classical Antiquity is ancient. To every history department in every university and college in the Western world Classical Antiquity is ancient. I suspect your definition in this context is different. Does your emphasis of "*ancient*" above indicate that you mean only something older than Classical Antiquity fits your definition of ancient?

OK, let's play. Please define ancient in this context, can you?

I have been quite careful to discuss specific evidence that has been dated by every method known to human beings at this point in time. And that evidence quite clearly demonstrated the existence of a well developed 4th century BCE culture writing in a uniquely identifiable Western Semitic language; a rather typical mythical-historical heritage that claims to be much older, in fact as old as the appearance of human beings; a unique theology which incorporates a rather complete world view; as well as customs codified into a system of written laws governing everything from dietary regulations, hygiene requirements, methods of slaughtering animals, treatment of slaves and servants, and a whole bunch of other customs and rituals that were probably not concocted during the 4th century BCE.

The literary corpus represented by 1QIsa and 4Q365 can be readily compared and contrasted to the Homeric corpus including the hymns; Hesiod's "Theogony" and "Works and Days;" and what survives of Thales, Anaximander, Pythagoras, Anaximenes, Aeschylus, and Herodotus. And maybe even some later works.

While it is true that we have more evidence of Hellenic culture by the 4th century BCE, the Greeks were a far more numerous people in a homeland not quite so amenable to successful invasion. The Greeks defeated the Persians, while the Hebrews were overrun and surrendered to the Persians. Those two facts alone are determinants of what came later under Alexander, his successors, and the Romans.

To me, the culture represented by 4Q365 and 1QIsa was in a transitional phase moving from a primarily Middle Eastern culture with roots in and dominated alternatively by Egypt and various Mesopotamian powers to becoming part of a larger Mediterranean culture dominated by Greece and subsequently Rome. Albeit these Hebrews may not have had any idea that the next conquest was by Macedonians and Greeks. Based upon the texts, this group had a history of being conquered repeatedly by larger powers. The Judaic literature, I think, reflects these cultural clashes that resulted from military defeat. And the text of Isaiah clearly expects more of the same into the future. The evidence is not all in, and there may never be enough evidence discovered to clinch the argument.

But this literature also "remembers" a golden age, exactly the same as the Homeric corpus. And one should be careful about dismissing the content of epics as solely the product of the poet's imagination. Remember how the greaves of Homer's "well greaved Achaeans" were widely dismissed as poetic license? Until some enterprising archaeologist found at least one bronze age greave.

So for now, pending clear evidence to the contrary, my position is that a uniquely identifiable albeit small Hebrew culture existed in the hill country around Jerusalem in the 4th century BCE. And a century or two makes a difference. Clearly a second or third century BCE date for the beginnings of the Hebrew culture of 1QIsa and 4Q365 is too late. There is far too much very well organized cultural content in 1QIsa and the larger texts represented by 4Q365.

Further, there is some literary, archaeological, and anthropological evidence that this Hebrew culture was older. I don't know how much older. But 4th century BCE is firm as the date by which time an identifiable culture existed that differed slightly from their neighbors. Also firm enough from which to form other working hypotheses at least.

Do you disagree with any of that? If you do, please elucidate. Please, please do be specific. The unproved and unprovable assertions of the likes of JTEM and Giwer are insufferable. Not to mention nonsense.

I don't have an ideological or theological dog in this hunt. I have no more interest in any modern theological outcome over the texts that later were assembled into the Old Testament than I do in the competition between Poseidon and Athena to become the patron of Athens.


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Relevant Pages

  • Re: Semiticisms anyone? More fun than tennis.
    ... You know, Giwer, the "alpha privativum" expressing want or absence as a prefix to "theos," spelled in Attic theta, epsilon, omicron, sigma in the nominative, singular, masculine, form. ... Find evidence to support your silly ass opinion, not merely your usual restatement of what the nincompoop Giwer thinks. ... writes or speaks anything about a culture. ... Since the Jewish culture today is a direct descendant of the Judaic culture of "Roman times" and before, yes, that is what I mean. ...
    (soc.history.ancient)
  • Re: Semiticisms anyone? More fun than tennis.
    ... You wouldn't be able to quote the passages from those four Roman authors in which they expressed that Jewish "proselytising zeal," would you, Giwer? ... Of course, I haven't yet mentioned 4Q365, the Pentateuchal Paraphrase, radiocarbon dated to the 3rd century BCE. ... While there may not exist conclusive evidence that Jerusalem was a Jewish or Hebrew or Judaic city earlier than the 4th century BCE, there is certainly conclusive evidence of a city on that location going back to at least 1000 BCE. ... Even after doing my few comparisons and reading others, the Judean culture is not exceptional, except that it was monotheistic by the 4th century BCE. ...
    (soc.history.ancient)
  • Re: Semiticisms anyone? More fun than tennis.
    ... You wouldn't be able to quote the passages from those four Roman authors in which they expressed that Jewish "proselytising zeal," would you, Giwer? ... you still haven't explained the radiocarbon dated 3rd century BCE copy of the book of Isaiah in Hebrew. ... While there may not exist conclusive evidence that Jerusalem was a Jewish or Hebrew or Judaic city earlier than the 4th century BCE, there is certainly conclusive evidence of a city on that location going back to at least 1000 BCE. ... Even after doing my few comparisons and reading others, the Judean culture is not exceptional, except that it was monotheistic by the 4th century BCE. ...
    (soc.history.ancient)
  • Re: Semiticisms anyone? More fun than tennis.
    ... Of course, I haven't yet mentioned 4Q365, the Pentateuchal Paraphrase, radiocarbon dated to the 3rd century BCE. ... While there may not exist conclusive evidence that Jerusalem was a Jewish or Hebrew or Judaic city earlier than the 4th century BCE, there is certainly conclusive evidence of a city on that location going back to at least 1000 BCE. ... phase moving from a primarily Middle Eastern culture with roots in and dominated alternatively by Egypt and various Mesopotamian powers to becoming part of a larger Mediterranean culture dominated by Greece and subsequently Rome. ...
    (soc.history.ancient)
  • Re: Semiticisms anyone? More fun than tennis.
    ... Absence of god, denying god, godless. ... the casual reader of your bigoted tripe, Giwer. ... Find evidence to support your silly ass opinion, not merely your usual restatement of what the nincompoop Giwer thinks. ... writes or speaks anything about a culture. ...
    (soc.history.ancient)
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