Re: A Few Things Which Matt and Inabon Probably Wish Did Not Exist....

On Jul 14, 1:03 am, Matt Giwer <jul...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

[snip]

I have posted you quite a bit of archaeological evidence - such as the
Lachish letters, which were found in an archaeological context - but
you seem to have a slight difficulty in dealing with archaeological
evidence.

        And you will be declaring you did to your dying day without the least
satisfactory response to my observations on the letters.

I've yet to see you post any observations on the letters I could not
response to with proper understanding of the subject. That you're
incapable of understading the answers, is not a problem of mine.

That is just your ignorance and/or reluctance to look at the evidence.
As I have said before, reading the text without staring blindly at the
Deuteronomic redaction and nationalistic spin the redactors added
might help.

        The first thing is calling it a redaction, another word which does have a
meaning, is nothing more than speculation which is based upon a belief in the
unsourced tradition that these books were written over a long period of time.
Without believing that religious tradition the simplest explanation is a poor
job of editing.

Sigh. It's just like trying to explain colours to a blind man - only
in your case you have willingly blinded yourself.

Quite a bit of this is based on actually being able to evaluate the
differences in language, which texts are more archaic, what kind of
theology they represent, what is their sitz im leben when it comes to
ANE history - none of which you can ever know anything about, being
too afraid to look into the evidence.

I'm damned if I try to teach you everything I know on the subject, as
it would be a total waste of my time. You lack the necessary skills,
and are unwilling to obtain them.

        As it is a fact that nationalism did start to replace fealty to kings in the
18th c. that some fool sees something that did not exist before the 18th c. is
something I have no interest in addressing. I have no idea what they think
they are seeing but it is certainly not nationalism. The idea is absurd as a
doctoral thesis on free enterprise in Babylon.

Argument from a very thorough personal ignorance, and therefore
invalid - as your arguments invariably are.

I see. Exegetics is an unfamiliar term for you then? Clue: that is a
research method for texts.

        You are telling me nothing new. You apparently do not realize what is "seen"
depends upon what people assume.

Interestingly enough, the same method works when dealing with Enuma
Elish. Or do you claim I believe in that as well? Only in
giwersworld....

        As I know of no physical evidence of the existence of these book prior to the
Septuagint I make no assumption of anything depends upon an earlier existence.

Translation: "as it is impossible for me to imagine anything outside
my own ignorance, I won't accept that someone who has studied the
matter in depth might actually know something about it."

        You do not appear to have grasped this point.

Oh, but I have... See above.

Let's define the terms - including theology
- which you are unfamiliar with then:
Main Entry:
    the·ol·o·gy
Pronunciation:
    \thÄ“-ˈä-lÉ™-jÄ“\
Function:
    noun
Inflected Form(s):
    plural the·ol·o·gies
Etymology:
    Middle English theologie, from Anglo-French, from Latin theologia,
from Greek, from the- + -logia -logy
Date:
    14th century

1: the study of religious faith, practice, and experience ;
especially : the study of God and of God's relation to the world
2 a: a theological theory or system b: a distinctive body of
theological opinion
- Merriam-Webster Dictionary
The Deuteronomic school of theology most certainly existed,

        Upon what physical evidence to you base such certainty? Can you tell which
book of the bible their theological digression exists? If it is not in one of
the books of the OT it is not in the bible. That is what I said.

And Matt shows that he does not know how to work with a corpus....
Tell me, if I had only the Congressional records, would it be possible
for me to obtain the outline of the US history from them?

and
differed greatly from earlier, more polytheistic theological thinking
evident in the Bible. It's the product of that theology you believe is
the sole theological school in the Bible. Nothing could be further
from reality. Try and compare Chronist to earlier texts, such as Job
or Zechariah - if you can remove your blinders momentarily

        Again there is no evidence of the existence of anything older than the
Septuagint. You fixation on "older" is based solely upon a religious tradition
  of unknown origin.

See above what I said on what this is really based on. In my previous
post I even translated a polytheistic text that is in the Bible. How
come the earlier strata is still there, _if_ you know how to read it?

[snip]

        Exegesis is like a sewer. What you get out of it depends upon what you put
into it. You and most believers start with the assumption of creation over
centuries therefore they find creation over centuries. And like you they are
unwilling to start a discussion assigning ages to each book thus the jello
avoids the nail.

"Genesis - Compilation written, by various contributers, during the
period covering 900 BCE - 400 BCE; drawing on an oral tradition that
may date back to 1100 BCE, or earlier. Oldest part is the Song of
Miriam.

Exodus - Around 550 BCE.

Leviticus - During the 400's BCE; but an earlier version likely
existed in the 600's.

Numbers - During the 500's BCE.

Deuteronomy - During the 600's BCE.

Joshua - Original source material from the mid 900's BCE; rewritten in
the 600's BCE, and again around 500 BCE.

Judges - Most written between 500 BCE - 600 BCE; chapters 17 - 21 were
added some time between 500 and 200 BCE, while chapter 5 may date back
to the 10th century BCE.

Ruth - Written sometime during the period 400 BCE - 250 BCE; likely
based on an older folktale.

1 Samuel / 2 Samuel - Originally one book. Compiled of material
written during two, or possibly three, periods: the oldest from 961
BCE - 922 BCE, most recent from 750 BCE - 650 BCE, and a possible
third source from the period in between.

1 Kings / 2 Kings - Originally one book. Compiled from the work of two
unknown authors, one from around 609 BCE, the other from 550 BCE. The
writers drew from earlier works of the Bible, and other Hebrew text.

1 Chronicles / 2 Chronicles / Ezra / Nehemiah - Originally one book
written by an unknown author in 300 BCE.

Esther - Standard version from the 100's BCE; Greek additions in the
Catholic version added just prior to the Common Era.

Job - Folktale written between 500 BCE and 250 BCE; with chapters 32
to 37 added more recently. Possibly in Edomite.

Psalms - A diverse collection spanning a period from as early as 1300
BCE, to 500 BCE.

Proverbs - A collection of short moral sayings compiled by a number of
authors in the 5th or 4th century BCE. Some of the sayings are likely
oral traditions that are considerably older.

Ecclesiastes - Written in the 200's BCE.

The Song of Solomon (Canticles) - Written sometime between the 5th and
3rd centuries BCE.

Isaiah - Three separate works: 1 Isaiah (1-39) 742 BCE - 700 BCE, 2
Isaiah (40-59) 539 BCE, 3 Isaiah (56-66) shortly after the end of the
exile in 538 BCE.

Jeremiah - Most of the original material was written by Jeremiah
between 609 - 580 BCE, but the work was a very late compilation by
others: hence the substantial differences between the Hebrew and Greek
versions.

Lamentations - From the Exile period (586 - 538 BCE). Chapters 1-4 are
by the same unknown author; with Chapter 5 likely by a second person.

Ezekiel - Much of the work was by Ezekiel 597 - 571 BCE, with the last
part of the book compiled after his death.

Daniel - Anonymous author from around 150 BCE.

Hosea - Much of the work is likely written by Hosea in the 8th century
BCE, with later additions by Jewish editors.

Joel - From 537 - 500 BCE.

Amos - Most written by Amos in the 700's BCE, with chapter 9, verses 9
- 15 added considerably later.

Obadiah - Written in the post-exile period. There is some debate as to
whether it is a compilation, or the work of Obadiah alone.

Jonah - Post-exile parable, by an unknown author.

Micah - Parts written by Micah, prior to 721 BCE; other parts written
by unknown authors during, and after the exile. Most of the first 3
chapters were added relatively recently.

Nahum - 663 BCE - 612 BCE.

Habakkuk - Chapters 1 and 2 from 597 BCE, chapter 3 by a later unknown
author.

Zephaniah - Most written between 640 and 609 BCE. Chapter 3, verses 14
- 20 added considerably later.

Haggai - 520 BCE. Possibly by Haggai; but more likely by one of his
disciples.

Zechariah - Chapters 1 - 8 from 518 BCE. 9 - 14 possibly around 400
BCE.

Malachi - 460 - 450 BCE."

That was the 2nd hit on a Google search.

If you were familiar enough with Judaism and the Samaritan religion,
you would have noticed that the difference is about the same as that
between the RCC and Eastern Orthodoxy, both being forms of
Christianity. Both stem very obviously - except to brain donors - from
the same stock.

Earlier, yes, and only fundies deny that, as the evidence is there and
some of it survives even in the Bible. But not much after 537 BCE they
didn't - at least we have no evidence from that period I've ever seen.

        And we know for a fact there was a temple to Ashara in Jerusalem in the time
of Josephus as he mentions it.

Where in Josephus?

So what else is new?

        Nothing except that we know the worship active in the 2nd c. AD. You do not
appear to be able to deal with this rather well known fact.

You don't appear to have a cite. I'm not about to wade through all of
Josephus, so chapter and verse, so to speak, please.

        For what it is worth, the first unambiguous statement of monotheism is found
in the Koran. Christianity jumped on board shortly after. Jewish records are
quite incomplete so we don't know when some of them got onboard with monotheism.

Try the Hymn to Aten for the first monotheistic statement.

We have no idea when they went monotheist
The Yahweh Only -movement gains ascendancy just prior to 586 BCE and
becomes dominant after 537 BCE.

        As you have no physical evidence for that assertion why do you bother to make
it up?

I'm not making anything up, that is plain from a _proper_ reading of
the OT - try it sometime....

And we know for a fact your are just plain wrong.

Who might this "we" be? The other ignoramus, Inabon?

Even if you can't
wrap your head around the physical evidence in that free BAR issue online
Dever shows a nice collection of statues and votaries dating to the 3rd c.. BC.

but we do know Astarte was worshiped in Jerusalem in
the early 2nd c. AD.
So you keep claiming. How about some evidence for it?

        Josephus mentioning it.

WHERE in Josephus???

There were also temples to her in Caesarea and Tyre.

Tyre was always oh-so Jewish city, of course.... /sarcasm off/

The pious liars translate them as Strato's tower from BYT STRT as in BYT YHWH.

Oh, you mean Stratonospyrgos?

You obviously would have benefited from participating here over the last ten
years but you did not.

By "benefiting" I take you mean swallowing your made-up crap whole.
That is not going to happen, until you come up with some real
evidence.

Well, Yahweh is associated with mountains in the older texts of the
Bible, especially Paran. Try reading the book for once...

        I am quite aware of that. You appear to think there was a later difference
when all of the stories were created in the 2nd c. BC absent evidence to the
contrary.

If you haven't noticed major differences in Yahweh's character when
comparing different books, then you have not read them....

        As with most believers you will insist you can divine evidence of age which
unsurprisingly exactly matches the religious tradition you bring to it.

You have it upside down, but then, that is is giwersworld....

        Perhaps you most important problem is the total absence of any archaeological
evidence of the events happening or people and things existing at the dates
you want to see them having been created. So you want these stories created at
a time when the people and things included in the stories did not exist. That
suggests these are the earliest works of alternate history science fiction.

That suggests that you are incapable of actually accepting the
evidence. When the evidence is presented, you explain it away - very
artificially and by leaps of illlogic - just like any Creationist does
when presented evidence of evolution.

[empty pontificating snipped]
.

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