Re: Ancient brewing, trial by sprint

On Sat, 1 Nov 2008 02:58:08 -0000, "Agamemnon"
<agamemnon@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:


"Eric Stevens" <eric.stevens@xxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:l4qmg4h7vt6gje212lqon9420sdcn7np94@xxxxxxxxxx
On Fri, 31 Oct 2008 15:48:23 -0000, "Agamemnon"
<agamemnon@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:


--- snip ----

OK, you have King List/chronolgy. But that does not deal with collapse
of cuture and population identified by archaeology. [See for example
pages 19-40 of 'Greece in the Making', Robin Osborne, Routledge 1996]

You are talking bullshit again. Mycenae was abandoned by Orestes in 1156
BC,
the same year in which he died of a snake bite after founding a new
colony
in Tegea. Archaeology corroborates this. In 1148 the Dorians attempted
to
invaded the Peloponnese. Archaeology again corroborates this. In 1124 BC
the
first Aeolian migration occured. Archaeology corroborates this. In 1101
BC
the Dorians returned and captured the Peloponnese. Archaeology confirms
this. The Achaeans were displaced in Ionia and the Ionians fled to
Athens.
Archaeology confirms this. The Ionians then migrated to Asia Minor from
1069
to 1040 BC. Archaeology confirms this once again. The Spartans begin
waring
with the Argives in 977 BC and the entire Peloponnese is badly governed
until the time of Lycurgus in 883 BC. Archaeology once more confirms
this.
From this point onwards the downturn which began in about 1150 BC starts
to
be reversed. After the First Messenian war ended in 735 BC the
Messenians,
Spartans and Corinthians migrate to Italy. Archaeology confirms this
like
before. In about 700 BC Gyges king of the Lydians invent coins. The
economies of the Aegean boom. Archaeology confirms this as usual. Robin
Osborne should be thrown in the bin. He doesn't have a clue about
archaic
Greece.

What has any of that to do with collapse of culture and population
identified by archaeology?

If don't know then you are in no position to discuss the subject. What I
have sated are the historical FACTS. What you have come up with is science
fiction.

Do you claim that the archaeological record does not comprise
historical facts? Are you claiming that the analysis of the

Historical facts are what is written down which originates from eye witness
reports.

Archaeologists are not eye witnesses?

archaeological record is not science? If so, your argument is lost

Analysis of the archaeological record is digging a hole in the ground and
accurately recording what you find in it and at what level is appears and
how old it is and nothing more.

There are some who would agree with you, but why are you ignoring the
fact that analysis follows?

beyond redemption and there is no point in continuing to try and
discuss this with you.


The collapse happened. Even Wikipedia knows about it. See
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_Dark_Ages

"The Dark Ages (ca. 1150 BC–800 BC) refers to Greek history from
the presumed Dorian invasion and end of the Mycenaean
civilization in the 11th century BC, to the first Greek
city-states in the 9th century BC. The archaeological evidence
shows a collapse of civilization in the eastern Mediterranean
world during this period, as the great palaces and cities of the

It shows that the Aeolian and Ionian migrations took place when they were
supposed to have taken place right after the Dorian invasion at the 4th
attempt put an ended to the Mycenaean's.

Myceneans were destroyed or abandoned. Around this time, the
Hittite civilization collapsed and cities from Troy to Gaza were
destroyed. The writing of Greek language appears to cease.
Greek Dark Age pottery has simple geometric designs and lacks
the figurative decoration of Mycenean ware. The Greeks of the
Dark Age lived in fewer and smaller settlements, suggesting
famine and depopulation."

It is not possible for even you to just wave your hands and have the
archaeological evidence disappear.

The archaeological evidence supports the historical evidence, and the
above
claims about writing are WRONG. Writing does NOT disappear.

There were probably only a small number of people who could read and

WRONG! Everyone could read and write.

Y

School was compulsory in ancient Greece and in Judea.

Forget Judea. So, your evidence for this is .... ?

Every Jew for example had to learn to read from the
scriptures before the age of 14. Every Greek was educated until the age of
16 and then did two years of national service. Haven't you ever read Plato?

Of course I have. But don't you know that Plato is several centuries
after the the dark ages of Greece?

Even Hesiod a poor farmer could read and write as could his brother Perses
who both lived in 900 BC.

In what form?

write. A cultural collapse could easily reduce the size of the
literate class to the point where it could not sustain itself. There

TOSH! There was no such thing as a literate class. Everyone could read and
write. The only people who needed scribes were people who could not see
without glasses, since glasses did not exist.

You are so sure. Why is that?

is no doubt that by about 700 BC the old writing had been entirely
displaced by a new form from outside. That does not support the
argument that the use of the old style had been sustained.

ABSOLUTE RUBBISH!

By 800 BC 5 different scripts existed in Greece all of which were descended
from a common Greek script used throughout Greece by 1200 BC at the latest,
before the migrations which occurred after the Trojan War. All of these
scripts survived until classical times until Ionian script was made standard
in about 400 BC along with the Attic dialect.


In any case, what about "The Greeks of the Dark Age lived in fewer and
smaller settlements, suggesting famine and depopulation." Is that
wrong too?

TOSH! We know exactly what happened in these non-existent dark ages.

Why do you insist on ignoring the archaeological evidence for fewer
and smaller settlements?

The
Dorians made 4 attempts to conquer the Peloponnese and finally succeeded in
1101 BC after 100 years trying. Even before this the Aeolians began
colonising Asia Minor in 1123 BC and Mycenae had been abandoned in 1156 by
order of the Delphic Oracle because it could no longer be defended. The
Dorian invasion forced the Achaeans into Ionia and the Ionians fled to
Athens from which the migrated to Asia-Minor between 1069 and 1140 BC along
with a further wave of Aeolians. That is the cause and reason for the
depopulation.

OK. So now you agree that the depopulation actually occurred.

No bullshit about famine or any other made up nonsense.

Make up your mind. Either it happened or it didn't.

In 735
BC further migrations occurred from Messenia, Sparta and Corinth to Italy as
a consequence of the First Messenian War. All the archaeological evidence
fully supports these facts and says nothing different.

None of which addresses the points I have previously made.


--- snip ----




Eric Stevens
.

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