Re: what race wa sresponsible for acheivements ancient Greec


"VtSkier" <VtSkier@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message news:44ierdF2cik3U1@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Agamemnon wrote:

"VtSkier" <VtSkier@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message news:44i7p7F2anmfU1@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Correct me if I'm wrong (I'm sure you will) but, weren't all of
the invasions you speak about subsequent to the Dravidian
occupation of the sub-continent? If so, why may my statements


Not necessarily. What are Dravidians.

Below you have them as arrivals on the sub-continent about

I didn't say they were the only Dravidians and I did not define the term Dravidians as being them and them alone.

40,000 years ago. They were who the Indo-Europeans found when
the plundered down into India about 4,000 years ago.

But the Indo-Europeans found the decedents of 3 different DNA lineages assuming the Indo-Europeans were M17.


above be true (asked rhetorically because I thing you may be
confusing time lines).

The main DNA linages of India are M89, M172, M52/69, M11/M20 and M17.

M89 evolved in the Middles East and is mainly Dravidian. M172 (an M89 sublinage) comes from northern Mesopotamia and Asia-Minor and is Dravidian, M52/69 is an M89 sublinage and may have evolved in northern India and is evenly spread around the population, M11/M20 is an M9 sublinage and the most common in India but not in Pakistan (where it is least common) and mainly Dravidian and M17 is the most common linage in northern India and in Pakistan and is Indo-European and same linage as the Slavs so evolved in the region of the Ukraine.

M130 is found in India in small proportions and is the linage of so-called black skinned Indians who were the first inhabitants of the land. Its also the linage of the Australian Aboriginals.

M11/M20 must represent the primary Dravidian linage which evolved in southern India from an M9 population that came to Asia 40 years ago.


Is this a typo?

A three 0's.

Thanks, that what I figured.

M52/69 might represent the first wave of invaders from Mesopotamia over 15,000 years ago.

I think invaders might, with it's conquerer connotations, be
the wrong word here. In pre-agricultural societies conquering
others was hardly an issue since there was no wealth. Passing
through, mixing with the locals, liking what they saw and
staying would be a better way characterize population movements
prior to the invention of agriculture.

They could have used the hunter gathers they captured as farm slaves.

Time line isn't right. There weren't any farms at the times we
are talking about. They hadn't been invented yet.

15,000 years ago there were farms and cities in Anatolia and Mesopotamia and in China.


Anyway to find out who the priest cast were we need to know when the religion was founded. The Egyprian and Sumerian religions can be dated to 3700 BCish but what about Hinduism. How far do the generations of kings and Gods go ?

There is a lot to suggest that of the Hindu gods are of Dravidian
origin. That the Indo-Europeans borrowed a lot of their world view
from them, adding, of course Krishna and Rama who are really
deified leaders of the invaders.

The Mahabharata has Krishna as a decedent one of the indigenous monarchies so how can he be an invader. Two indigenous monarchies went to war with each other. This does not sound like an invasion but a civil war.

Does the Mahabharata provide king lists down to the time of Alexander or Darius I so the war can be dated.


M89 and M172 represent more recent invaders maybe 10,000-7,000 years ago. M89 and M172 might also represent recent Islamic invaders but with the lack of M35 in the same proportion it is highly unlikely the these linages are recent. M35 only evolved 10,000 years ago and since it is out weighed by M89 and M172 in India and since these lineages and are usually found in equal proportion to M35 in the Middle East the M89 and M172 lineages must have left Mesopotamia before M35 arrived.

If M52/69, M89 and M172 were responsible for the Indus Valley Civilisation in 3000 BC then an African influence on agriculture in the middle east can be ruled out since it must have evolved more than 10,000 years ago. M52/69, M89 and M172 may have imposed the Cast system on the oriental looking M11/M20 linage. Does anyone know what the facial futures of the higher casts look like. Are they long and elongated and do the lower casts have round faces ?

M17 were presumably the Indo-European invaders of India of 1400 BC and its also possible that a group of these were responsible for the Indus Valley Civilisation in 3000 BC but unlikely since the Slavs were hunter gathers until Byzantine times.

The next highest linage is after M130 is M124 and represents Hunnic invaders.

b) this is supported by the fact that the caste system is
stronger in southern India where the influence of the Indo-
Europeans was much less than in the north and that members
of the Brahman caste in southern India tend to be darker
skinned, like the rest of the population suggesting that
they are members of the Dravidian group. Genetics may have
been used to check this out as it's not a new idea.

Northern India was subject to invasions by Persians, Greeks, Muslims and the British the latter two of which tried to abolish the cast system in the north but failed. The people of the lowest casts became Muslims while those of the high casts continued to intermarry with their own cast and in particular with their own relatives as did those who became Muslims thus the cast distinctions still remain.

DNA tests show the DNA of people of the higher casts is less differentiated than those of the lower casts including untouchables which suggests that the higher casts represent individual races who invaded India.

I think, if I read your DNA data correctly, that you have
the Dravidians coming to India before the invention of
agriculture. If so, there would have been no need for a
caste system. This also does not negate my statement that
Dravidians may have invented the caste system before the
arrival of Indo-Europeans.

We haven't figured out what Dravidians were yet.

See above


We still haven't.

The Dravidians could have been M52/69, M89 and M172 as well as M11/M20.

When did the Dravidian language evolve and when did Semitic evolve and what was the language of M52/69 and M172 ?

You have M11/M20 as Dravidians above which places them apparently
at 40k years ago.

And I have other lineages there as well.


Dravidian could be a composite language.

I know your stand on Greek and I'll let it pass, but IMO ALL
languages are composite in some way. Some more, some less
than others. Dravidian derived languages survive today most
notably as Tamil, but there are pockets as far north as
Baluchistan, with the frequency getting less as you go north.


If Dravidian is related to Sumerian then M89 or M172 could represent a proto-Sumerian invasion.


South of the equator you'd be quite right. Agriculture
didn't spread to southern Africa until the Bantu
migrations of the last 2000 or so years.

Herodotus couldn't have known it all, he could only
report what others (and himself) saw. The Phoenicians
saw no agriculture.

He knew (or at least we do) that the Phoenicians crossed the equator because of the movements of the sun so that establishes there was no agriculture south of Ethiopia.

No, but there was agriculture west of Ethiopia, in lots of
areas in West Africa by then. What are we talking here,
800 BCE? Yes I think agriculture would have been widespread

600 BCish.

in West Africa by then. And it's archaeological evidence that
confirms that there was _no_ agriculture south of the equator
in Africa before the Bantu migrations, not Herodotus
relating reports from coast-sailing Phoenicians.


.

Relevant Pages

  • Re: Indian History - A Dravidian perspective.
    ... How should Beggars be treated in India? ... that was proto Dravidian - a forerunner of Tamil and other South Indian ... Then came the Aryans about 4000 years ago. ... This conflict ended with the establishing of the caste system in Northern ...
    (soc.culture.pakistan)
  • =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re=3A_Has_anybody_read_Bernard_Sergent=27s_=22Gen=E8se_de_l?= =?ISO-8859&
    ... "fuck you" - he apparently gives India four linguistic invasions ... | Les travaux de Bernard Sergent se situent dans la continuit de ceux ... According to Sergent, the Dravidian populations are ...
    (sci.lang)
  • Re: Indian History - A Dravidian perspective.
    ... that was proto Dravidian - a forerunner of Tamil and other South Indian ... because most North Indian Languages are retroflexive. ... Also the languages of North India, ... This conflict ended with the establishing of the caste system in Northern ...
    (soc.culture.pakistan)
  • =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re=3A_Has_anybody_read_Bernard_Sergent=27s_=22Gen=E8se_de_l?= =?ISO-8859&
    ... "fuck you" - he apparently gives India four linguistic invasions ... According to Sergent, the Dravidian populations are ... David McAlpin was in aclass on Languages of the ... some morpheme or other resembled a corresponding morpheme in Elamite. ...
    (sci.lang)
  • Re: what race wa sresponsible for acheivements ancient Greec
    ... he meant relatives of current day Africans - ... The cast system was invented because of 3 or 4 successive invasions of India whereby the invaders imposed their superiority via cast. ... sublinage) comes from northern Mesopotamia and Asia-Minor and is Dravidian, M52/69 is an M89 sublinage and may have evolved in northern India and is evenly spread around the population, M11/M20 is an M9 sublinage and the most common in India but not in Pakistan and mainly Dravidian and M17 is the most common linage in northern India and in Pakistan and is Indo-European and same linage as the Slavs so evolved in the region of the Ukraine. ... Does anyone know what the facial futures of the higher casts look like. ...
    (soc.history.ancient)