Re: Solomon and Jesus

pooua@xxxxxxx wrote:
> Matt Giwer wrote:
>> Martin Edwards wrote:
>>> Matt Giwer wrote:
>>>> pooua@xxxxxxx wrote:
>>>>> Matt Giwer wrote:
>>>>>> Only bible thumpers still insist on the possibility of there being
>>>>>> any fact in the bible.
>>>>> Archeologist Eilat Mazar has discovered a "major public building from
>>>>> around the 10th century BC with pottery shards that date from the time
>>>>> of David and Solomon." In addition, she found a "government seal of an
>>>>> official mentioned in the book of Jeremiah."
>>>>    Camel dung can be found from the _biblical_ time of David and
>>>> Solomon. Nothing found indicates there was either a David or Solomon.
>>>> Palestine has been occupied by humans ever since humans and homo
>>>> erectus and orangs left Africa. Signs of human habitation would be
>>>> noteworthy only if absent.
>>> In which case they would not be noteworthy because they wouldn't exist.
>>> Seriously, though, you're right on this one.

>> It is not so much that I am right but that the believers make the great leap from
>> "something was found from such and such a date" to "Solomon lived!"

> That wasn't what I posted. You made the claim that "Only bible thumpers
> still insist on the possibility of there being any fact in the bible."

    First biblical Israel is defined as the Israel described in the bible.

There is no evidence of biblical Israel, period. There is evidence beyond _maybe_ the use of a similar word which may have been adopted by the creators of the old testament in the same way writers like Tolkien lift old words. The sources of the word were likly still known and on display when the OT was created. EVERY usage of "SRL" iSRaeL is to a greater or lesser degree ambiguous.

> And, I've heard the claims along that line for several years, now;
> David was a nebish, ancient Israel was little more than scattered
> villages at its peak, etc.

And what you have heard is people trying to discard the Israel of the bible and downplaying it to a nothing little place in order to salvage belief in its existence. Fact is there is no evidence of it, period. As rational people only accept things for which there are physical evidence, no rational person accepts the existend of even a grossly exaggerated Israel.

> Now, someone has found a substantial, public
> building from around the time of David's era. You simply gloss over the
> fact that this means there was a bit more than a camel corale in the
> area at that time.

To repeat, so fucking what? The remarkable thing would be finding nothing from the supposed biblical time of Israel. Apes, including us, evolved in Africa. orangutans, Homo Erectus, Homo Meanderthal and Homo Sapien ALL at one time lived in Palestine in the course of leaving Africa. Palestine has been on the trade route between Egypt and Mesopotamia for at least 5000 years. The New Kingdom of Egypt ruled all of Palestine up to the Euprates BEFORE the bible says Abraham and Solomon were born.

How can anyone possibly make a point of finding a building in Palestine? It means nothing unless there is an inscription on the wall saying to the effect "Built by King Solomon."

Bible believers jump from finding anything to the OT is true without the least hesitation. Evidence of much more than a mere building is required.

>> There is anothing fact so readily glossed over. [snip] The "working" but false
>> assumption is Palestine and Egypt are some huge distance apart when they
>> are less than one week apart walking.

> When my ship was moored in Haifa for 2 weeks, I took a trip to
> Jerusalem, with stops in Tel Aviv and Nazareth. I am aware of how small
> the area is.

It is good that you know but I was pointing out just how small it was. It would be better if you had previously understood just how many millions of years Palestine has been inhabited by Homo whatevers. It would be even better if you understood just how much human civilization was in the region for at least two thousand years before the OT imagines Solomon existed.

>> And given Palestine was the only land trade route and silk first appears in
>> Egypt about 3000 BC (somewhat questionable some but not enough to
>> establish there was regular trade) and regular Syrian and Mesopotamian trade
>> going back to 3000 BC in unquestionable how does one explain the absense
>> of this and all its consequences in the OT if it were history?

> The OT describes very little of the trade practices of the time. One of
> the few exceptions is Solomon's trade overseas, in which ships were
> said to take a 3-year circuit. Very little is said about the trade
> routes used by any of the other kings, much less strangers passing
> through the area.

I did not say whomever created the OT was not creative and threw in some imaginary sea trade for the imaginary Solomon. But every place else in the world it is artifacts from other cultures which leads us to conclude the locals engaged in any kind of trade. When there is evidence of such trade in the region then we will have only evidence of such trade in the region not who conducted it. There are ZERO unidentified artifacts in the region. All have been associated with known cultures and none of them are Israelite.

If there were artifacts of biblical Israel you would find them in Museums around the world and particularly in Israel. Why do you not go on line and take a look at them? Post the URLs. The makers of the "pomegranate" are on trial as is the temple offering tablet and the brother of Jesus ossuary so don't bother with those. Real accredited museums not tourist traps. If it says from Greek or Roman times it is meaningless. The silver thing with the "may his light shine upon you" is from at least 2000 BC and is an incantation to Ra. Find something of interest.

>>  Lawful to bomb Israelis http://www.giwersworld.org/israel/bombings.phtml a11

> Wow, I wonder if you have a bias against ancient Israeli history? How
> could you not, seeing that you hate Israel of today!

If it were unlawful to resist Israeli occupation it would be unlawful to resist any military occupation, such are resisting the Russians in Afghanistan or the Nazis in Poland and France. I have never made international law in my life. I merely recite it.

But to the point, it all depends upon physical evidence. As there is physical evidence of biblical Israel there is nothing to be biased against.

--
On 9/11 WTC 1, 2 and 7 became the only steel frame buildings
ever to collapse from fire.
    -- The Iron Webmaster, 3533
 nizkor http://www.giwersworld.org/nizkook/nizkook.phtml
 http://www.giwersworld.org
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