Re: Do we have non Eusebian evidence that there were Christian Churches prior to 312?
- From: "mountain man" <hobbit@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 23:42:04 GMT
"I_E_Johansson" <inger_e.johansson@xxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:c558f.149224$dP1.507185@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>
> "mountain man" <hobbit@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> skrev i meddelandet
> news:vs%7f.2093$Hj2.1368@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> By non Eusebian evidence I exclude anything capable
>> of crossing the imperial desk of the Caesarean. I look
>> at the job (of Eusebius of Caesara) as an ancient IT
>> manager, CEO Roman Imperial Library and thus by
>> default after 324, CEO Alexandian library.
>
> Yes we do thanks to for example Arius and the debate he caused,
My thesis is that the first Christian churches only appeared
under the compulsion of Constantine, in the west during the
period following his taking Rome (312) and in the east
following the period of his supreme rule (324), and that the
formalisation of this agenda was at the Council of Nicea.
"But those who say that there was a time when he was not,
and before he was born he was not,
and that he was made out of nothing existing
or who say that God's Son is from another subsistence
or substance or is subject to alteration or change
the catholic and apostolic church anathematizes."
Arius' debate was that "there was time when he was not",
and I use these words to support the thesis that no form
of Christianity existed prior to Constantine, and that the
newly promulgated constantinian god was a strange notion
to the status quo.
That all churches were pagan, and that the reaction of the
these pagans to the implementation of christianity by the
supreme emperor is the root of the "Arian controversy".
> the Goths
> and Ablabius as other examples, we most certainly know about Christian
> churches before 324.
The Goths were the main source of Constantine's non Roman army,
and seeing they were mercenaries, part of his revenue budget.
Ablabius was not born before the Council of Nicea.
> We do have a lot of Sophists who were to put their
> written reactions in short words - more or less angry, mad, frustrated,
> annoyed, etc etc on Ablabius. the later I can understand since it was he
> who followed Constantine the Great from Arles, then as a priest later
> having
> same position as Tacitus had in his days and as Cassiodorus came to later
> on.
Yes, but the substance of my question is that we need to find someone
who was called themselves a christian before Constantine, the supreme
emperor, decided to implement christianity as a revenue based people
management project.
> For information on Arius you can start by looking at:
> http://www.bartleby.com/65/ar/Arius.html
>
> Examples on Christian Churches built in England between 167 AD to 409 AD:
> Hinton St Mary (Dorset), Lullingstone (Kent) och St Martin´s in Canterbury
My theory is capable of being refuted either in whole or in part
on the basis that any of these churches be found dedicated to a
christian religion before the year 312.
For example, my theory suggests that all the churches in the east
and west of the Roman empire were pagan churches before this
date, and many of them (especially in the east) remained that way
until Constantine called them in to discuss the "Arian controversy".
I have no doubt that Constantinople has new christian churches,
but I have a great deal of doubt concerning the integrity of the
testaments derived from Eusebius of Caesara, and note that the
greater bulk (_if_not_all_) of evidence supporting the assertion
that there were christian churches prior to 312 is "Eusebian".
> In 314 AD three English Bishops attended the Church-meeting in Arles. They
> most certainly had churches under their See.
The question is whether they were Christian churches before signing
on the dotted line of the creed and adopting Constantine's supreme
imperial "sponsorship" package and benefits.
Did they declare thus? I am beginning to suspect that Christianity
might not have existed in the ancient world until 312, that the work
and testaments of Eusebius (fully sponsored by Constantine) do not
represent a history but an ahistory.
If the Eusebian integrity is tested, but calling a spade a spade, and
examining the logical implications of it being false, one must then
conclude that the real history for the period was without any lost
tribe of christians.
More importantly one must conclude that there needs now to be
a physical time and space at which the strands of ahistory try and
join the strands of the real history --- a place of new ideas, a
place of great turbulence --- the Arian controversy.
To repeat, this theory is capable of being refuted either in whole
or in part on the basis that any churches be found (external to
the Eusebian history and other testaments) dedicated to a christian
religion before the year 312.
Pete Brown
www.mountainman.com.au
.
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