Re: Leslie

On Oct 4, 10:31 pm, "Leo" <can2...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
CP XIV does not add or change anything about the early generations of this family.

CP XI pages 184 to 187 covers the earliest generations.

1.Bertholf
2.Malcolm, son of Bertholf mentioned 1170 - 1200
3.Norman the Constable, son of Malcolm mentioed 1199 - 1224
4.Norman de Lescelin, son of Norman mentioned before 1214 and 1253
5.Sir Andrew de Lescelin, suggested he was probably son of Norman son of Norman the Constable and father of Norman father of Andrew
6.Sir Norman de Leslie
7.Sir Andrew de Leslie who married in 1313 Mary  de Abernethy

Burke's Peerage 1999 page 2456 gives several differences
1.Bartholomew/Bartolf, probably a Hungarian nobleman who came to Scotland with Margaret of Wessex and became her chamberlain. _Apparently_ married Beatrix, sister of King Malcolm III
and was granted extensive lands, Governor of Edinburgh Castle, died in 1121
2.Malcolm Constable of Inverurie Castle
3.Norman dead by 1248 and married a daughter of the feudal lord of Lorn
4.Norino
5.Norman, 1st of Leslie, dead by 1317 and married Elizabeth Leith
6.Sir Andrew who in 1313 married Mary Abernethy  

The Scottish Peerage gives a slightly different story
1.Bertolf or Bartholomew is said to be of Flemish origins. He is said to have flourished at the court of Malcolm III _and to have married a sister of the King_ He died in 1121
2.Malcolm mentioned in a charter not earlier than 1172 and probably died in 1200
3.Norman the Constable of Inverury  

The generations vary, and did Bertolf marry a sister of Malcolm III, and was he Hungarian or Flemish?

Can anyone tell?

With best wishes
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia

================================

Dear Leo,

Oddly enough, I tend to the Burke's version - as to the
generations displayed. The marriage to a daughter of the Lord of Lorn
(Gen. 3) is possible - there was a consanguineus relationship between
Sir Andrew Leslie, his wife Mary de Abernethy, and her 2nd husband Sir
David de Lindsay, and Mary was a G-granddaughter of Ewen mac Donchadh
mac Dubhgaill, lord of Lorn. I have seen no evidence re: Elizabeth
Leith (Gen. 4).

Bertholf or Bartolf was more likely a Fleming. He was not a
contemporary of St. Margaret, and doubtless had nothing but a
legendary connection to the departure of Edward Ætheling and his
family from Hungary in 1057. His son Malcolm was an adult and likely
not very aged when he had a charter from David, lord of the Garioch
(later Earl of Huntingdon) ca 1174x1190 confirming him in his lands in
Lesslyn or Leslie. The probability is that Malcolm was born say
1130x1160: little this side of cryogenics would make this Malcolm the
son of a contemporary of the Ætheling and his wife Agatha.

At that point, the alleged marriage to a sister or any other
family member of Malcolm III should be dispensed with.

Cheers,

John



Notes

[1] Charter prob. dated 1174 x 1190, in the Rothes MSS. found in HMC,
Fourth Report, Part I (1874), p. 493, no. 1:

"1. Charter by David, brother of the King of Scots, addressed to all
good men of his kingdom, French, English, Flemish, and Scotch,
granting and confirming to Malcolm, son of Bertolf, and his heirs, his
land in Lessele, as it was perambulated to him before M[atthew],
Bishop of Aberdeen, and by good men of the granter, and Hachennejort
and Macho to be held of the granter and his heirs in feu and heritago
for the service of one knight. Witnesses, M[atthewJ, bishop of
Aberdeen, Malcolm, son of the Earl; Anegus, son of Dunecan; Brocchin,
the judge; Robert of Kernel; Herbert of Arches; Alan, son of Hugh;
Walter of Bslighe; Coubtbbs Gilbert of the Lake; Nicholas of Adles;
William or Kothbs. Waccele. [1172-1190.] (Original.) "

David was made lord of the Garioch in 1174. Matthew was
consecrated bishop of Aberdeen on 2 Apr 1172; he d. on 20 Aug 1199.


.

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