Re: Parents of Agnès de Montbéliard (Montfaucon)
- From: "Peter Stewart" <psssst@xxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2011 09:41:38 +1100
"Peter Stewart" <psssst@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message news:iii2ne$adt$1@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
"J.L.Fernandez Blanco" <fernandezblanco.jl@xxxxxxxxx> wrote in message news:ffac38e0-278f-40fc-91d9-4c17eba5f135@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxOn Feb 4, 12:00 pm, Ronald Di Iorio <medgen2...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> Thank you, Peter. That clears up the question of her father having
> been Amadeus or Richard II, the two most commonly encountered
> individuals said to be her father.
> There is another identification that intrigues me. It is at the site:
> Here it is claimed that Agnès was one Agnès de Nevers-Montbéliard,
> Dame de Pacy-sur-Armançon (89) et Montfaucon (fille de Guillaume
> III de Vienne, Nevers, Auxerre et Tonnerre et d’Ida de Carinthie.
This identification comes from a study done by Edouard de Saint-Phalle
"Suivant une récente étude d'Edouard de Saint Phalle (Bullettin Sté
Académique de l'Aube 2009 t CXXXIII) Agnès serait fille de Guillaume
de Nevers comte de Nevers x Ida von Sponheim dite Ida de Carinthie.
Cette étude très documentée donne une bonne réponse aux interrogations
récentes posées sur l'identité d'Agnés (les auteurs classiques devant
être mis "hors course" pour être remplacés par ceux plus crédibles"
I haven't been able to find this study.
OTOH, the sources for the "Racines" site are "general" and you will
find them in the first page of each family. The information given is
not reliable and you will find that many times is contradictory (i.e.,
the informatin given in one table differs from the information given
in another in a different page). Of course, there is no individual
source for any filiation and some of them are absolutely ludicrous.
Quite so - apart from other mistakes, the second table shows Jean de Brienne's grandfather Gautier II with four wives, a farrago that has proliferated since Schwennicke gave this in 1989 (ES neue Folge vol 3 table 681).
There is a consistent record of one wife, named Adelais (a daughter of André, seigneur of Baudement, seneschal of Champagne & his wife Agnes) who was the mother of his children and survived as his widow as shown by her son's charter dated in 1166 ("ego Erardus, Brenensium comes ... Hoc totum factum est in presentia matris mee"). There are two charters, dated in 1135 and 1138 respectively, in which Gautier's wife is either named or implied to be called Hubelina - but in one case this appears to be an alternative name for Adelais since she is still connected to the Baudement family, and in the other is perhaps due to confusion with Hubelina of Chacenay, the mother-in-law of her daughter Agnes.
Schwennicke had Gautier marrying as his third wife this same Hubelina of Chacenay in the year she was widowed, 1137, but we know that Adelais the mother of his children was still his wife in 1146 from a charter of her son-in-law, Hubelina's son, Jacques of Chacenay ("ego Jacobus, dominus de Cachennaio, assensu Agnetis, uxoris mee, atque ammonitu Galteri, Brenensium comitis, et matris uxoris ejus, domine Agnetis de Baldimento, et domine mee A., Brenensium comitisse") and from a privilege of Pope Eugene III on 1 March 1152 ("nobilis mulier Azealis, comitissa de Brena, cum viri et filiorum suorum").
It was pointed out to me off-list that the Medieval Lands website repeats the four marriages given in ES and purports to give some evidence for this scheme.
It is clear that Cawley is trying too hard to find, or in this case to deduce, proof for unwarranted assertions - and has misread Schwennicke in the process.
In Cawley's opinion, Gautier married:
1. an unnamed daughter of daughter of André de Baudmont & his wife Agnes
2. (repudiated before 1147) as her second husband, Humbleline (died 1166 or after), of unknown family, widow of Anseric II de Chacenay; "According to Europäische Stammtafeln, she was --- de Soissons, daughter of [Jean Comte de Soissons & his wife Aveline de Pierrefonds], but the primary source on which this is based has not yet been identified." However, Schwennicke actually made the unnamed daughter of Jean into the second wife and Humbeline widow of Anseric de Chacenay into the third.
3. (before 1147) Adelais, "daughter of --- & his wife Agnes".
Cawley then makes #1 the mother of Gautier's eldest child, Agnes the wife of #2 Humbeline's son Jacques de Chacenay, and #2 herself the mother of his nine other offspring. Schwennicke on the other hand made Agnes the daughter of either N de Baudement or N de Soissons, and gave the latter as mother of all the others, not Humbeline.
The evidence proposed for this by Cawley has been interpreted with no more care than he has applied in misreading Schwennicke.
Nothing is offered for the first wife ("The primary source which confirms her parentage and marriage has not yet been identified"). As I posted before, a charter a Jacques de Chacenay dated 1146 identified Agnes de Baudement as mother-in-law of Gautier ("ammonitu Galteri, Brenensium comitis, et matris uxoris ejus, domine Agnetis de Baldimento") while giving A. as the initial of his wife's name ("et domine mee A., Brenensium comitisse"). We know that she was mother of at least two of his sons from a charter of her father André de Baudmont with the assent of his own son and two (presumed) sons-in-law along with their wives and some of their sons, dated 1133 ("Guido, filius domni Andree, iterum laudavit atque uxor ejus; comes Brinie laudavit et uxor ejus et filii eorum Guido et Eustachius; Guido de Dampetra iterum laudavit, et uxor ejus nomine Elvidis, et filii Ansericus et Guillelmus"). We know that Gautier's wife, the mother of his sons living in 1152 (including Eustachius) was named Adelais from Gautier's own charter written ca 1150 ("Ego Walterus, comes Brenensis ... assensu et laude Adelaidis uxoris mee") and Pope Eugene III's confirmation written in 1152 ("Confirmamus ... ecclesiam, quam in Riparia Materne nobilis mulier Azealis, comitissa de Brena, cum viri et filiorum suorum necnon bone memorie Gosleni, quondam Suessionenis episcopi, cujus feodum erat, assensu, concessit, scriptique sui assertione firmavit.") NB This holding by Adelais de Baudemont from the bishop of Soissons appears to be the basis for making a fictitious daughter of the count of Soissons into another wife of Gautier.
As to the invented marriage of Gautier to the widow of Anseric de Chacenay, Cawley states: "Her two marriages are deduced from the charter dated 1174 which records a dispute involving her son (by her second marriage) 'comitem de Brenna Herardum' which was witnessed by her grandson by her first marriage 'Erardus nepos eius de Chacenaio'". This is misleading at best, since the charter does NOT in any way imply that Erard, count of Brienne was her son - this has been deduced by Cawley from his misreading of Schwennicke rather than from the document itself. Furthermore "nepos eius" here CANNOT mean "her grandson" (though he was) since she is not mentioned in the charter at all - it plainly means "his nephew", as he is named immediately after his maternal uncle André de Brienne, who was named after his own maternal grandfather André de Baudement ("Hujus rei testes sunt ... Andreas frater comitis; Erardus nepos ejus de Chacenaio").
Cawley then compounds his errors by repeating the absurdity that Gautier had a fourth wife whose name Adelais and mother's name Agnes were coincidentally the same as those of Adelais de Baudement, which as above is based on a charter specifying that the mother-in-law in question WAS Agnes de Baudement, whose daughter had at least two sons by Gautier de Brienne in 1133.
Once again, reader beware... or better still avoid the hopeless slough of Medieval Lands entirely.
- Prev by Date: Re: Was Rose, wife of Michael Beresford, a Knyvett or a Fitzwilliam?
- Next by Date: Re: Parents of Agnès de Montbéliard (Montfaucon)
- Previous by thread: Re: Parents of Agnès de Montbéliard (Montfaucon)
- Next by thread: Re: Parents of Agnès de Montbéliard (Montfaucon)