Re: fragments Chernihiv

Regarding the relatively fragmentary genealogical recording of agnatic
descendants of St.Michael for a century and so, as fragments to the pile of
testimony there are a few attestations in chronicles, to the effect that a
certain Duke living at the time, were 'grandson' (or like) of St.Michael.
I already have mentioned here that these terms 'grandson' and
'great-grandson' obviously (and at least in one of these cases evidentially,
the others however indicated too by chronology or somesuch) had a looser
meaning, signifying an agnatic descendant instead of necessarily precisely
son of son:
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/gen-medieval/2010-05/1273006389
(similar assessment has been given e.g Rowell who commented Skalmantas in
the Zadonschina poem)
For example, a 'great-grandson' could well be descendant in 4th generation
or 5th generation
Of genealogists, e.g Vlassiev has rejected the literal interpretations,
rejected that a patronymic could be assigned to the father if his son is
mentioned as 'grandson' of another man.
When assessing the chronology, recall that St.Michael was executed in 1246
as an old man, and that already in 1238 he hed had a daughter (eldest,
probably) who had given birth to a bunch of children of her own. St.Michael
is plausibly reconstrued as born in the 1180s. He cannot have had any sons
of his own after 1246, and already (clearly) prior to that date, several of
his sons must have been born. The 1220s is a good estimate for his younger
sons to be born.
Ikonnikov reports the following attestations of 'grandsonship' (recte:
agnatic descendancy):

* Roman Semenovich, known to be duke of Odojev (and former holder of
Novossilsk), in 1375 was 'grandson' of St.Michael
http://genealogics.org/pedigree.php?personID=I00493607&tree=LEO&parentset=0&display=standard&generations=5
I believe it is a mistake to make up on basis of that 'grandsonship' that
his father really was son of St.Michael himself. Already chronology would
mean he was something like great-great-grandson of St.Michael - and the
other testimony about him actually means that St.Michael cannot have been
his father's father, the latest possibility is great-grandfather (but even
that gets extended by one generation more, because of other aspects).

* Ivan Titovich was in 1371 descendant of St.Michael. Plausibly born in the
1330s.
http://genealogics.org/pedigree.php?personID=I00493432&tree=LEO&parentset=0&display=standard&generations=5

* Sviatoslav Titovich was (1376) a 'great-grandson' of St.Michael. Plausibly
born around 1340
http://genealogics.org/pedigree.php?personID=I00302780&tree=LEO&parentset=0&display=standard&generations=5
I believe it is a mistake to make up on basis of that 'great-grandsonship'
that Tit was precisely grandson (son's son) of St.Michael. already
chronology would be easier if Tit himself was great-grandson of St.Michael

* Konstantin Jurjevich 1368 was mentioned as 'grandson' of St.Michael.
Plausibly born only after 1300
http://genealogics.org/pedigree.php?personID=I00484080&tree=LEO
I believe it is a mistake to make up on basis of that 'grandsonship' that
there was a Juri Mikhailovich. There surely was a Juri, but already
chronology would mean he was a grandson or even a more remote descendant of
St.Michael


2010/6/26 M Sjostrom <mqsjo5@xxxxxxxxx>


It is -or should be- well known that Rastislav Mihajlovic of Chernihiv,
ban/duke of Slavonia, Machva, etc, was the eldest son of Saint Michael of
Chernihiv. Eldest, as he is indicated by the story about getting
disinherited, but also indicated to the same effect by several other
contemporary things, such as being earliest attested, being placed by his
father to claim high thrones....
http://genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00027046&tree=LEO
Also Rastislav is the only one of Michael's sons whio is clearly attested
as his son - as opposed to being attested as descendant not necessarily son

I am ready to believe that 'Semen', the (possibly reconstrued) author of
the branch of Glukhov, was a son of St.Michael. Such filiation (as opposed
to grandsonship) fits the chronology of the Glukhov-Novossilsk branch. Semen
could be born in around 1225 (or 1220)
So, this man (although not necessarily attested as son and possibly not
attested as person in any way, merely perhaps as a name in lineage rhyme, or
in someone's patronymic) was presumably son of St.Michael
http://genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00340045&tree=LEO

because sons of Mstislav of Chernihiv [Kozelsk, Karachev, Zvenigorod
branch] were born at span about 1280s-c1310
I do not believe Mstislav himself was a son of St.Michael himself. Instead,
Mstislav could be Michael's grandson. Born in 1260 or something like that,
and son of Michael's such son who was born around 1230 or earlier
so, this one would preferably be grandson of Michael

http://genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00302778&tree=LEO

because son, possibly youngest but still, of Georgi (of Tarussa) was born
around early 1300s, I do not believe that Georgi actually was a son (not
even youngest) of St.Michael himself. Instead, Georgi of Tarussa could be
Michael's grandson. Born in 1260s-1270s or something like that, and son of
Michael's such son who was born in 1230s or earlier
so, this one would preferably be grandson of Michael

http://genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00300221&tree=LEO

It is not impossible that the two latest (= Mstislav and Georgi), or one of
them, actually would have been son of 'Semen', Glukhov branch, and not at
all to have separate sons of St.Michael as their fathers

----

I have not seen anything in near-contemporary sources to attest a father or
a patronymic to any othe following,
and thusly I think they should not be made with patronymics at all.


http://genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00383863&tree=LEO
he should be: prince Mikhail [of Glukhov] (no patronymic)


prince Mstislav
http://genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00302778&tree=LEO
he should be: prince Mstislav [of Karachev-Kozelsk] (no patronymic)


http://genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00302779&tree=LEO
he should be: prince Tit [of Chernihiv-Karachev] (no patronymic)


http://genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00300221&tree=LEO
he should be: prince Georgi [of Chernihiv-Tarussa]


2010/6/26 M Sjostrom <mqsjo5@xxxxxxxxx>


Baumgarten was kind enough to collect a pile of descent pieces from the
synodik of Liubech and some other 1300s or so documentation:

the following lineage is attested:
(and for illustration, links which I think to represent those men:

prince Mikhail - duke of Glukhov
http://genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00383863&tree=LEO
his son:

Semen Mikhailovich, duke of Novosilsk (fl 1353) - duke of Glukhov too
http://genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00493597&tree=LEO
his son:

Roman Semenovich, duke of Novosilsk (fl 1375; died after 1385)
http://genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00493607&tree=LEO
his son:

Semen Romanovich, duke of Novosilsk (fl 1402)


------------------------------------------------

prince Mstislav
http://genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00302778&tree=LEO
his son:

Sviatoslav Mstislavich, duke of Karachev (killed in 1310) - chronicle of
Nikon


prince Mstislav
his sons:
1 Pantaleimon
his son:
Vasili P., duke of Kozelsk (fl 1339)

2 Andrei Mstislavich, duke of Kozelsk (killed in 23 june 1339) -
'russian chronicles'



Tit (of Chernihiv/ of Karachev)

his sons: - chronicle of Nikon

1 Sviatoslav Titovich of Karachev; married (before 1376) Fedora
Algirdaite of Lithuania
http://genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00302779&tree=LEO

2 Adrian Titovich, duke of Zvenigorod; married Helena Komantaite -
daughter of lithuanian duke Gomantas


Tit, duke of Kozelsk (fl 1364)
his son:

Ivan Titovich, duke of Kozelsk (fl 1371) [chronicle of Nikon]; married
Agrafena Olegovna - synodik of Liubech
http://genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00493432&tree=LEO
her father:
http://genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00304602&tree=LEO

------------------------------------------------
'russian chronicle':

prince Georgi
http://genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00300221&tree=LEO
his son:

Konstantin Iurievich, duke of Obolensk (killed in 1368 by lithuanians)
http://genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00484082&tree=LEO
his son:

Semen Konstantinovich, duke of Obolensk (fl 1374,fl 1380)


prince Konstantin
his son:

Ivan Konstantinovich, duke of Tarussa (fl 1375) - 'russian chronicles'
http://genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00484081&tree=LEO

two seemingly brothers of Tarussa (both slain at Kulikovo): - 'russian
chronicles'

1 Mstislav of Tarussa (slain in 1380 at battle of Kulikovo)
2 Fedor of Tarussa (slain in 1380 at battle of Kulikovo)


------------------------------------------------



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