Re: Theoderich von Are



Adam, Will, Leo,

The publication to read is:
Ute Bader, Geschichte der Grafen von Are bis zur Hochstadenschen
Schenkung (1246), Rheinisches Archiv 107, Ludwig Röhrscheid Verlag,
Bonn 1979 (ISBN 3-7928-0429-8), 431 pages.

Graf Theoderich I von Are (1087-1126) married twice, second time (ca.
1220) possibly with a Sponheim girl (Bader uses a ? in her charts).
Children from 1:
1. Lothar I (mentioned 1126/7-1140), graf of Are
2. Gerhard (mentioned 1124- + 1169), propst in Bonn
Children from 2:
3. Ulrich (1143- + 1197), graf von Are-Nürburg
4. Otto (1143- + 1162), graf von Are-Hochstaden
5. Friedrich (1142- + 1168), bischof von Munster
6. Poppo (1158), kanoniker in Mariengraden

After the death of Theoderich II in 1158, son of Lothar I, his uncles
Ulrich and Otto provisionaly divided the Are-inheritance. They became
the ancestors of two branches.

Bader devotes a large chapter to the possible ancestors of graf
Theoderich. In the past there has been quite some speculation. Even
Bader can not proof for certain the parents and grandparents. Clear
however is the fact that the grafen von Ahr were closely related to
the grafen von (later dukes of) Limburg. Both families share
possesions en rights in the same places that must originate from a
former family partition/division, with the grafen von Are as the
possible younger branch.

Bader claims a mentioning in may 1087 of a Theodericus de Herlar to
refer to the above graf Theoderich of Are. There are however serious
doubts as there is a family of Lords of Herlaer that were a junior
branch of the Belgian grafen von Loon (counts of Looz). I do not
follow her thus in her assumption. The next and first mentioning of
Theoderich and of him as 'comes de Ara' is thus from 1105. The younger
son Otto must have married around 1135. His elder brother Lothar I
eldest son Theoderich is first mentioned in 1149 and must then have
been at least 14 years of age. Lothar I married Hildegunde von Meer a
younger daughter of graf Hermann von Liedberg, probably somewere
between 1130 and 1134. Say less likely but possible at earliest in
1129. To me it is enough to doubt the assumption that graaf Theoderich
married twice. He is mentioned alive in the period 1105-1126. If he
married around 1105 there is no reason to divided his sons in two
batches.

Graf Theoderich von Are is assumed to be a Theodricus de Herlar whom
we encounter with a son Poppo as a witness in un undated charter that
usually is seen as dating from the period 1079-1099. Other witnesses
in this charter can be identified with persons living later (between
1101-1134). The deed in the charter seems genuine enough but the
witness list could have been later added acoording to some
researchers. Even so the spelling de Herlar for this Theodricus and
the humble position points more to the Brabantse lords of Herlaer then
to the grafen von Are. The combination of a father Theodericus with a
son Poppo in both the family of the grafen von Are and the lords of
Herlaer however is peculiar, but then again Lothar was the eldest son.
He would have been the first likely person to accompany his father if
they were the same persons mentioned in the undated charter.

With regards,
Hans Vogels









On 21 jan, 16:01, Mézes de Debreczen et Rettegh <vons...@xxxxxxxxx>
wrote:
Dear All,
I read about that Theoderich von Are had six sons. (http://www.kreis-ahrweiler.de/kvar/VT/hjb1956/hjb1956.32.htm)
Who are they? I cant find this family in the web.

Thank you.

Adam

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