Re: Giron

Mara,

I have looked at the 'Colección Diplomática del Real Monasterio de
Sta. María de Benavides' and found that the piece about Berenguela
López de Salcedo is from Jerónimo Gudiel.
This is the same jump of 3 generations that is seen in 'Nobiliário do
Conde D. Pedro' as Berenguela López de Salcedo married Rodrigo
González Girón, son of Gonzalo Ruiz Girón and Elvira Diáz de Castañeda
(I did not confirmed this but it is from Salazar y Castro).

Now about Gonzalo Gonzálvez Girón, married to Teresa Arias.

2) Rodrigo González Girón (+1256), married to Berenguela López (will get back to her later). Parents of:
3) Gonzalo González Girón married to Teresa Arias (daughter of Arias Glz de Quesada and María Froilaz) parents of:
3.1. Gonzalo Rdz, Maestre de Santiago married to Elvira Díaz de Castañeda.

As I told you before this does not seem possible.
In several websites - unsufficiently sourced - nr. 3 becomes Rodrigo
what makes patronymics acceptable.
However Gonzalo González seems undeniable for those deeds with the
Order of San Juán in 1233.
And, from the data you have posted:

«1282, sept. 1 (Benavides): *Roy Glz de San Román* and his wife Elvira
reach an agreement with the monastery in connection with the churches
in Villacid. He declares that he is the son of Gonzalo Roiz.
Mentions as his uncle
Rodrigo González, mentions his grandmother Teresa Arias as the daugher
of María Flórez. »

If he is a son of Gonzalo Ruiz, this Gonzalo Ruiz can not be other -
trust me here - than the mayordomo mayor, señor de Frecilla, Cisneros
y Autillo (d. bef. 1234).
This was accepted by some people before - I do not mean M. Sjostrom
who did put the hypothesis to reject it I could not understand why -
as it is seen in some websites. For instance, one where all the other
data seems correct even if incomplete.
It follows Gonzalo Argote de Molina (1549-1596):

« XI. Gonzalo Ruiz de Girón. Señor de Cisneros. Mayordomo de la curia
del rey. Contrae 1º matrimonio con Sancha Rodríguez de Lara, hija de
Rodrigo Rodríguez de Lara y de Elvira García. Contrae 2º matrimonio
con Marquesa Pérez, otorgando escritura de arras el 13 de mayo de
1213. Fallece en 1234.

Gonzalo y Sancha son padres de:

1. Rodrigo González Girón. Contrae 1º matrimonio con María
Froilaz, hija del conde Fruela Ramírez y de doña Sancha. Contrae 2º
matrimonio con Teresa López de Haro, hija de Lope Díaz de Haro, señor
de Vizcaya. Contrae 3º matrimonio con Berenguela López de Haro,
hermana de la anterior. Fallece en 1256.

2. Gonzalo González (que sigue en XII)

3. Teresa González Girón. Contrae matrimonio con Ruy González de
Ceballos.

4. Aldonza González Girón. Contrae matrimonio con Ramiro Frolaz.

5. María González Girón. Contrae matrimonio con Guillén Pérez de
Guzmán, señor de Vecilla, hijo de Pedro Ruiz de Guzmán y de Urraca
Díaz.

6. Elvira González Girón. Contrae matrimonio con Joao Alonso
Téllez de Meneses, señor de Albuquerque.

7. Sancha González Girón.

8. Brígida González Girón.



XII. Gonzalo González de Girón. Señor de Cisneros. Contrae
matrimonio con Teresa Arias de Quijada. Fallece en 1258. Son padres
de:

1. Ruy González de Cisneros.

2. Gonzalo Ruiz de Girón (que sigue en XIII)

3. Berenguela González Girón. Contrae matrimonio con Lope de
Haro, hijo de Lope Díaz de Haro, 11º señor de Vizcaya. »

The obvious problem is that deed of 1222 where all children of both
marriages are listed and there is no Gonzalo González.
If he is granting in 1233 he can not be son of Marquesa and my only
possible conclusion is that when the deed of 1222 was copied the
scribe forgot him. It is not possible to find another son of a Gonzalo
Ruiz that inherited Cisneros.

Regards,
Francisco
(Portugal)



On 31 Jul, 23:18, Francisco Tavares de Almeida
<francisco.tavaresdealme...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Well Mara, now you have turned my head upside down.

If you are right and the Cisneros came from the Giróns - against what
I thought and can be seen in several websites with Cisnero's ancestry
- it is an heraldic case study.

You can see Cisneroshttp://www.houseofnames.com/xq/asp.fc/qx/cisneros-family-crest.htm
(just see the coat of arms, do not read anything there)
and Girónhttp://www.zazzle.co.uk/giron_family_crest_mug-168913612652791772

When a family comes from one other and adopts new arms, other than
just change colours or disposition, the most usual is to add some new
pieces to the original arms. If you are right, the Cisneros did the
contrary and removed the giróns. For all I know this was very
unexpected - but not impossible as it was much before any regulation -
and by itself motive enough to let people assume that the Giróns came
from the Cisneros and not the contrary.

Regards,
Francisco
(Portugal)

On 31 Jul, 19:16, mara Gonzalez Morejon <gonzalezmore...@xxxxxxxxx>
wrote:

Hello Francisco,

 <I can not find out who first used that Cisneros/Girón crest. Always

guessing it could have been Gonzalo Rodríguez shortly after 1216 when
he had the struggle with count Álvar Nuñez de Lara and for that same
reason might have changed any Lara's variation he may have used for
something new; but still the Cisneros must be explained.>

 ......

 I don't have the answer yet because I haven't followed all that line, but
here is a clue taken from "Las Behetrías Castellanas" by Carlos Estepa Díez,
Vol. I, page 297

(my translation):

 "The Cisneros and Saldaña lineages stem from the Girón lineage.   From the
Crónica of Alfonso X we learn about ricoshombres such as *RUY GONZÁLEZ DE
CISNEROS* and Fernán Ruiz de Saldaña (Chapter XXXVI, LII).   The former
comes from the large descent of GONZALO RODRÍGUEZ * and the latter could be
the son of Rodrigo Rodríguez who is confirmed as Tenente de Saldaña since
the term "Saldañá" is used in the Crónica(above) to refer to Fernán Ruiz and
Rodrigo Rodríguez, probably his brother" and most likely based on the fact
that his father held this tenencia during the reign of Fernando III".

 *The footnote after the name Gonzalo Rodríguez is: The most likely
hypothesis is that Ruy González (de Cisneros) is the son of *Gonzalo
González the brother of Rodrigo Glz Girón*".

 Another footnote on the Saldaña, quoting Doc. 561 in Las Huelgas:

"According to a document in 1270, there is a Rodrigo Rodríguez son of
Rodrigo Rodríguez de Saldaña who transacts a sale in Bañuelos de Bureba.

 What I have in my database is (as I said, I have not completed documenting
this line, it is what I interpret and have to document further):

 1) Gonzalo Rodríguez Girón (+c 1234) + Sancha Rodríguez, among the
children:

 2) Rodrigo González Girón (+1256), married to Berenguela López (will get
back to her later). Parents of:

 3) Gonzalo González Girón  married to Teresa Arias (daughter of Arias Glz
de Quesada and María Froilaz) parents of:

 3.1. Gonzalo Rdz, Maestre de Santiago married to Elvira Díaz de Castañeda.

 This couple had two sons (at least).   One of them was Gonzalo Rdz Girón,
and another one was RODRIGO GLZ DE SAN ROMÁN.

 On this last one:

1282, sept. 1 (Benavides): *Roy Glz de San Román* and his wife Elvira reach
an agreement with the monastery in connection with the churches in Villacid.
  He declares that he is the son of Gonzalo Roiz.   Mentions as his uncle
Rodrigo González, mentions his grandmother Teresa Arias as the daugher of
María Flórez.   I have this Roy Glz de San Román and his wife Elvira, as the
parents of Gonzalo Rdz Girón who married María "La Raposa" Téllez de
Meneses. (Not documented yet).

 and

 3.2. Rodrigo González Girón (son of Gonzalo Glz Girón and Teresa Arias)who
appears in the Monastery of Benavides (Palencia) on 24 feb 1257, declaring
himself as the son of Gonzalo González, jointly with Doña Mencía, Queen of
Portugal, acting as the executors of the will made by Teresa Arías, give the
monastery the property of Villacid.

The earliest Cisneros I have in my database is:

Arias González de Cisneros who is documented in Huelgas in 1304.  He must
have died bef 1325. Married to Mencía de Manzanedo (from the Girón.... I have
her as the daughter of Gonzalo Gómez de Manzanedo and Sancha Ibáñez de
Guzmán. Paternal grandparents: Gómez Rodríguez de Manzanedo and Mencía
Pérez.  This last Gómez Rodríguez I have as the son of Rodrigo Rodríguez
Girón (son of Rodrigo Gutiérrez Girón and María de Guzmán) and Inés Pérez.
That's the line I mentioned in an earlier thread based on documentation in
Sta. María de la Vega).

Son of Arías and Mencía would be Juan Rodríguez de Cisneros married to
Mencía de Padilla

 Now, going back to Berenguela López, and this brings us to the Haros.

 In the introduction to collection of charters of Benavides, the author I
believe mistakenly says that Rodrigo González Girón married twice, curiously
enough, his 2 wives would be,  Berenguela López de Salcedo as the first wife
and mother of Gonzalo González Girón, who he claims is the daughter of
Sancho García de Salcedo (I don't have him documented)

 The second wife, would be Berenguela López de Haro, daughter of Lope
"Cabeza Brava" Díaz de Haro and Infanta Urraca Alfonso.

 I have several reasons for doubting this and believe that both Berenguelas
are one and the same person, and I’m just thinking out loud here:.

 Berenguela López de Haro was the sister of Queen Mencía  (married to Sancho
II of Portugal).

 Why would Mencía López de Haro be one of the executors of Teresa Arias'
will and act jointly with Rodrigo Glz Girón, who according to the author of
the prologue to the Charters of Benavides, would not be the son of Mencía
López de Haro but of a Berenguela López de Salcedo?

Another point, Lope "Cabeza Brava" Díaz de Haro had a son out of wedlock,
Diego López de Salcedo who is very close to Queen Mencía, his half sister.
 He appears very often in documentation, for example in 1255 in Villamayor
de los Montes, confirming as Merino Mayor de Castilla.

 In 1257 (Col. Diplo. Riojana) he appears jointly with Mencía again..

 In the following page, you can see an interesting article on Mencía with
lots of mentions on Diego López de Salcedo.

http://www.cervantesvirtual.com/servlet/SirveObras/public/01350542033...

 Well, I started with the Girón and ended up with the Haros...

 Best regards,

Mara

.

Relevant Pages

  • Giron
    ... comes from the large descent of GONZALO RODRÍGUEZ * and the latter could be ... Rodrigo Rodríguez, probably his brother" and most likely based on the fact ... hypothesis is that Ruy González is the son of *Gonzalo ... "Cabeza Brava" Díaz de Haro and Infanta Urraca Alfonso. ...
    (soc.genealogy.medieval)
  • Re: Giron
    ... You can see Cisneros ... comes from the large descent of GONZALO RODRÍGUEZ * and the latter could be ... Rodrigo Rodríguez, probably his brother" and most likely based on the fact ... hypothesis is that Ruy González is the son of *Gonzalo ...
    (soc.genealogy.medieval)
  • Re: manrique de lara
    ... the historical count Gonzalo Nunez was actually ... and could hence be placed as brother of count Rodrigo ... in turn hypothesized as son of count Munio Gonzalez. ... but of Pamplona. ...
    (soc.genealogy.medieval)
  • Re: Giron
    ... On the other hand Sánchez de Mora states that the Gonzalo Rodríguez ... 1173-1193 Rodrigo Gutiérrez ... Tello Fernandez, documented under Urraca and Alfonso VII, who died fighting ... siblings mentioning that their father Rodrigo Gutierrez plus the fact that ...
    (soc.genealogy.medieval)
  • Re: Giron
    ... Maria Emma Escobar and Chico Dória, Iberian genealogy was for too long ... In traditional genealogies, Gonzalo was a son of Rodrigo GONZÁLEZ, ... children he had had with his first wife, Maria de Guzman. ...
    (soc.genealogy.medieval)