Re: Ida de Tony, wife of Roger le Bigod, Earl of Norfolk, and mother of William Longespée, Earl of Salisbury

Hi Douglas,
  This is my lineage too that you sent me the generations on. I too wondered if Ida was the daughter of Ralph de Tony. Thank you so much for sending this information on this line. I appreciate it. :)
 
Marianne Dillow
 

--- On Wed, 12/3/08, Douglas Richardson <royalancestry@xxxxxxx> wrote:

From: Douglas Richardson <royalancestry@xxxxxxx>
Subject: Ida de Tony, wife of Roger le Bigod, Earl of Norfolk, and mother of William Longespée, Earl of Salisbury
To: gen-medieval@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Date: Wednesday, December 3, 2008, 8:32 AM

Dear Newsgroup ~

Paulo has asked for the source for the name, Ida de Tony, wife of Earl
Roger le Bigod and mother of William Longespée, Earl of Salisbury.
I've posted below my current file note regarding Ida de Tony, which
sets out the evidence for her identity and parentage.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +
I. Ida de Tony, wife of Roger le Bigod, Earl of Norfolk (he died
1221), and mother of William Longespée, Earl of Salisbury

For conclusive evidence that Ida, wife of Earl Roger le Bigod, was a
member of the Tony family, see Morris, The Bigod Earls of Norfolk in
the 13th Century (2005): 2, who cites a royal inquest dated 1275, in
which the jurors affirmed that Earl Roger le Bigod had received the
manors of Acle, Halvergate, and South Walsham, Norfolk from King Henry
II, in marriage with his wife, Ida de Tony (citing Rotuli Hundredorum
1 (1812): 504, 537). Morris shows that Earl Roger le Bigod received
these manors by writ of the king, he having held them for three
quarters of a year at Michaelmas 1182 (citing PR 28 Henry II,
1181-1182 (Pipe Roll Soc.) (1910):64). This appears to pinpoint to
marriage of Ida de Tony and Earl Roger le Bigod as having occurred
about Christmas 1181. For evidence that Ida de Tony was the mother of
William Longespée, Earl of Salisbury (illegitimate son of King Henry
II of England), see London, Cartulary of Bradenstoke Priory (Wiltshire
Rec. Soc. 35) (1979): 143, 188, which includes two charters in which
Earl William Longespée specifically names his mother as Countess Ida.
Furthermore, among the prisoners captured at the Battle of Bouvines in
1214 was a certain Ralph [le] Bigod, who a contemporary French record
names as ?brother? [i.e., half-brother] to William Longespée, Earl of
Salisbury [see Brial, Monumens de Règnes des Philippe Auguste et de
Louis VIII 1 (Recueil des Historiens des Gaules et de la France 17)
(1878): 101 (Guillelmus Armoricus: ?Isti sunt Prisiones (capti in
bello Bovinensi)?Radulphus Bigot, frater Comitis Saresburiensis?); see
also Malo, Un grand feudataire, Renaud de Dammartin et la coalition de
Bouvines (1898):199, 209]. As for Countess Ida?s parentage, it seems
virtually certain that she was a daughter of Ralph V de Tony (died
1162), of Flamstead, Hertfordshire, by his wife, Margaret (b. c.1125,
living 1185), daughter of Robert de Beaumont, 2nd Earl of Leicester
[see C.P.7 (1929): 530, footnote e (incorrectly dates Ralph and
Margaret?s marriage as ?after 1155? based on the misdating of a charter
?correction provided by Ray Phair); C.P. 12(1) (1953): 764?765 (sub
Tony); Power, The Norman Frontier in the Twelfth and Early Thirteenth
Centuries (2004): 525 (Tosny pedigree)]. For evidence which supports
Ida?s placement as a child of Ralph V de Tony, several facts may be
noted. First, Countess Ida and her husband, Roger le Bigod, are known
to have named children, Ralph and Margaret, presumably in honor of
Ida?s parents, Ralph and Margaret de Tony [see Thompson, Liber Vitæ
Ecclesiæ Dunelmenis (Surtees Soc. 136) (1923): fo.63b, for a
contemporary list of the Bigod children]. Countess Ida was herself
evidently named in honor of Ralph V de Tony?s mother, Ida of
Hainault. Next, William Longespée and his descendants had a long
standing association with the family of Roger de Akeny, of Garsington,
Oxfordshire, which Roger was a younger brother of Ralph V de Tony
(died 1162) [see C.P. 8 (1932): chart foll. 464; 14 (1998): 614; Loyd,
Origins of Some Anglo-Norman Fams. (1951): 2; VCH Oxford 5 (1957):
138; Harper-Bill, Dodnash Priory Charters (Suffolk Rec. Soc. 16)
(1998): 34?37, 39?40, 72?73; Fam. Hist. 18 (1995?97): 47?64; 19
(1998): 125?129]. Lastly, Roger le Bigod and his step-son William
Longespée both had associations with William the Lion, King of Scots,
which connection can be readily explained by virtue of King William?s
wife, Ermengarde, being sister to Constance de Beaumont, wife of
Countess Ida?s presumed brother, Roger VI de Tony [see C.P. 12(1)
(1953): 760?769 (sub Tony)]. William the Lion was likewise near
related to both of Countess Ida?s presumed parents, her father by a
shared descent from Countess Judith, niece of William the Conqueror,
and her mother by a shared descent from Isabel de Vermandois, Countess
of Surrey. Roger le Bigod and William Longespée were both present
with other English relations of William the Lion at an important
gathering at Lincoln in 1200, when William the Lion paid homage to
King John of England [see Stubbs, Chronica Magistri Rogeri de Houedene
4 (Rolls Ser. 51) (1871): 141?142]. Thus, naming patterns, familial
and political associations give strong evidence that Ida, wife of Earl
Roger le Bigod, was a daughter of Ralph V de Tony.


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