Re: Rainer, Reiner, Rayner mentions in Domesday

Michael Bath wrote:
For Matthew Connolly & Renia

Matthew Connolly wrote:
Hmm, that seems far too low; the 1881 census at Familysearch returns
4586 Bristow, Bristowe and Bristo entries, although that includes
females of course.
You're quite right! I forgot to take into account that the 1901 census at the NA limits records. This can be corrected by limiting the search criteria. Results are for males of all ages : Bristow 2123, Bristowe 202, Bristo 41, Bristoe 202, Bristol 179.

There were more than 5,000 Bath(e)s in the 1901 England census.
Almost 2,000 Londons
8,500 Bedfords
Almost 4,000 Salisburys
Almost 3,000 Lincolns
389 Bristols
4,600 Bristow(e)s
More than 6,000 York(e)s
127 Canterburys
Almost 15,000 Kents

You can see that the returns for male Bristows roughly corresponds with what you found in the 1881 census for both genders and the data for the statistics compiled in Sept. 2002, on the other site you mentioned, as the population doubled over the intervening 101 years. However, it doesn't change much, except to confirm that the returns I received are seemingly correct. The numbers equate with the surname York (2210 males)in the 1901 census. I suppose these are towns of roughly the same size? There certainly is no doubt that some families took their surnames from larger established towns- the question is when. Of the Bristow males (2123) only 627 are between the ages of 18 - 44, given that a certain proportion never married and others didn't produce offspring, perhaps 500(?) families? Is this from a few families in the 13th century, or many families much later on - Renia mentioned foundlings being named after the town, something I'd never heard of.
If Bristol compares with York then Bath might compare to Canterbury, both being ecclesiastical centres. There were 72 male Canterburys in the census. FamilySearch suggested no spelling variants. I have 4 medieval families passing on the name of Bath beginning in the 12th century. Circumstantial evidence indicates that at least three were related. They could, statistically, have accounted for many of the 1407 Bath/Bathe males in the 1901 cansus. Renia wrote:
Because at the time, it wasn't a name, just a reference to where they were from, or what their occupation was, or what the colour of their hair was.

Does this logic apply to the surnames Basset, de Bohun, Sanford, Giffard, Pomeray ? They all married de Baa/Bathes and, "because of the time", they were their social equals. Were they separate individuals who happened to come from the same place in France? What about Courtney or Beaumont - there were thousands of men with short noses, or came from places with pretty hills. A cognomen may last for a man's lifetime. A surname is passed down to succeeding generations and I have plenty of contemporary evidence that this was the case with the 12-13th century Baths.
If anyone can show me contemporary evidence, from the 12th-13th C.,of Town names being passed on as surnames I'd love to see it. Please, don't provide deeds from the towns themselves, as the legal formula was to identify a man with his place of residence even when he had a surname.

As I've said before, here and elsewhere, people were often known by more than one "name" during this early period. In his own village, a man might be known as John Redhead. If he went to York on business, he might be known as John de Kirby (the name of his village). Domesday Descendants, to which I referred you, is full of aristocrats with completely different "surnames" to each other, depending on where their landholdings were, in England or in Normandy/Brittany/France.

Beaumont, Courtney, De Bohun, Giffard and Pomerai genealogies are often discussed on this newsgroup. Sanford/Sandford is the name of many places in England. Beaumonts and Courtneys abounded and abound in France. The names you refer to could be separate individuals or separate families. What you need is the documentation to prove it.
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Relevant Pages

  • Re: Rainer, Reiner, Rayner mentions in Domesday
    ... I may have missed some variants, but the question remains as to whether these names were being used as surnames during the 12th-13th centuries. ... If, as you suggested, foundlings were given the names of towns this could account for a significant proportion of the numbers found on the 1901 census. ... However, someone going from Bath to London, for example, might just as easily have been known as John of Bath in London, and John Redhead in Bath. ...
    (soc.genealogy.medieval)
  • Re: Rainer, Reiner, Rayner mentions in Domesday
    ... I forgot to take into account that the 1901 census at the NA limits records. ... Results are for males of all ages: Bristow ... There certainly is no doubt that some families took their surnames from larger established towns- the question is when. ... A surname is passed down to succeeding generations and I have plenty of contemporary evidence that this was the case with the 12-13th century Baths. ...
    (soc.genealogy.medieval)