Re: Question for the group

DOUGLAS,

Details Regarding the White/Hungerford Connection
by way of David Collyer <dcollyer@xxxxxxxxxxxx>

Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
From: rwhu...@xxxxxxxxxx (by way of David Collyer <dcoll...@xxxxxxxxxxxx>)
Date: 2000/05/15
Subject: Details Regarding the White/Hungerford Connection

Dear Friends,
I'm forwarding this most interesting post from the Hungerford List for
your enjoyment.
Regards
David in Ballarat, Victoria, Australia

I was finally able to locate the most recent copy of the New England
Historical & Genealogical Register (Vol. 154, Whole #614, Apr 2000). On
page 219 can be found the article I referenced in last week's note about
the new info re the White/Hungerford connection. I have copied the
pertinent parts that provide the source material and the author's thought
process and logic concerning this heretofore unsubstantiated connection.
Per the Register--the author is Douglas Richardson--frequent contributor
to the Register and other genealogical journals, specializes in English
origins of colonial families. His address is 216 West Buffalo Street #3,
Chandler, AZ 85224.

The title of the article: Plantagenet Ancestry of Edward Rainsford
(1609-1680) of Boston, Massachusetts.

"In 1985, James Rasmussen published a detailed account of the English
ancestry of Edward Rainsford. (Footnote 1: Register, 139 (1985): 225-38,
296-315.) Rasmussen duly observed that an earlier researcher, Frank
Allaben, had claimed a royal line for the immigrant through the ancestry
of his mother, Mary Kirton. (Footnote 2: Allaben's material was published
posthumously in "The Journal of American History," 23 (1934): 89-94.)
Rasmussen dismissed the alleged line, however, because it didn't "appear
to be substantiated," no evidence having been found that the mother of
Mary Kirton's ancestor, Robert White, was "Alice Hungerford." (Footnote
3: Register, 139 (1985): 228.)

Following publication of Rasmussen's article, I was engaged by Jon Clark
of Detroit to research Edward Rainsford's ancestry further. As part of
this assignment, I examined available records for the Kirton and White
families,
including those pertaining to the alleged White-Hungerford connection.
New evidence was discovered that I believe proves the supposed weak link
in the alleged royal line.

The problematic generation is that of John White (died 1469), of Farnham,
Surrey, gentleman, whose wife is given in various secondary sources as
Alice Hungerford. That her given name was Eleanor, not Alice, is proved
by a series of newly discovered Chancery suits in which Eleanor, "late the
wife of John White, of Farnham," sued John Yong, knight, of London and Sir
Richard Newbrigge, clerk in Chancery, over various White family manors in
Hampshire: (Footnote 4: "List of Early Chancery Proceedings" (PRO,
London, 10 vols. (1901-1936)), Lists and Indexes, No. 16: 160 (citing
Bundle 48,
No. 470), and 184 (citing Bundle 52, No. 43.))

In the period, 1473-1475, Sir Henry Fitz Lowys, knight, and Eleanor, his
wife, late wife of John White, of Farnham, sued John Yong, of London,
knight, and Sir Richard Newbrigge, clerk, feoffees, in Chancery regarding
"the manor of Rokeford Moyles alias Moyles Court, and the moiety of the
manor of Bodenham, Hampshire.

In the period, 1475-1480, or 1483-1485, Robert Whyte, son of John, son of
Robert Whyte, late of Farneham, sued Richard Newbrugge, clerk, feoffee to
uses, in Chancery, regarding the "manor of Penyngton near Lymington,
Hampshire, late of Margaret Hungerford, lady Botrewex (Botreaux)." Harry
FitzLowys, knight, and Alianor, his wife, late the wife of John White, son
of the said Robert, the grandfather, sued the same individual in Chancery
regarding the same property. Robert, son of John, son of Robert white,
late of Farneham also sued John Yonge, knight, and Richard Newebrigge,
feoffees to uses, in Chancery regarding the "manor of Rokford Moyles, a
moiety of the manor of Bedenham, Hampshire," and the "manor of Padnyndene
and a messuage in Guilford, Surrey." Richard, son of John, son of Robert
Whyte sued the same individuals regarding the same property, "and the
manor of Penyngton." Harry FitzLowys, knight, and Alianor, his wife, late
the wife of John White, son of the said Robert, the grandfather, sued the
same individuals for "Rokford Moyles and Bedenham." John Yonge, esquire,
son of Agnes, daughter of Robert White, sued the same individuals for
"Rokford Moyles, Bedenham and Penyngton."

That Eleanor's maiden name was Hungerford is attested by two heraldic
visitations. The Hampshire visitation states that John White's wife was
"Alice d(aughter) of Rob(ert) lord Hungerford." (Footnote 5: William
Harry Rylands, ed., "Pedigrees from the Visitation of Hampshire," Harleian
Society Publications, 64 (London, 1913): 81-83. The various visitations
(1530, 1575, and/or 1622-34) are combined into single pedigrees, making it
impossible to determine the date supporting any particular statement.)
while the Essex visitation states that John White's wife was "Ellenor
d(aughter) of Rob(ert) lord Hungerford. (Footnote 6: "The Visitations of
Essex," Harleian Society Publications, 14 (London, 1879): 618.)

Eleanor's marital history is instructive in itself. After the death of
John White, she remarried at least twice: about 1470, to Sir William
Tyrrell, Knt., the younger, of Heron in East Thorndon, Essex; and - newly
discovered - before 1475, to Sir Henry Fitz Lewis, Knt., of Bromfords in
Newendon, Essex and London. (Footnote 7: Tyrrell, "Calendar of Patent
Rolls," 1467-1477 (1900), 211; Lewis, "List of Early Chancery
Proceedings," 2 (PRO, Lists and Indexes, No. 16), 160,184.) Both her
second and third husbands were descendants of Edward I, and the third was
the grandson of an Earl. Further, Eleanor's step-daughter, Mary Fitz
Lewis, married, prior to 1480, Anthony Wydeville, Earl Rivers, brother of
Queen consort Elizabeth Wydeville. (Footnote 8: "Complete Peerage," 11
(London, 1949): 22-24 (sub Rivers.) Thus, Eleanor White had lofty
connections, including people closely related to the throne itself."

I am skipping some narrative that dealt with her descendants who made a
mark in history.

"Although marital history and social station provide helpful clues, it is
important to research wills and/or passage of property for evidence to
corroborate visitations. Wills for Eleanor's parents have survived and
printed transcripts of both of them have been available for many years.
(Footnote 11: Sir William Dugdale, "The Baronage of England," 2 vols.
(London, printed by Thomas Newcomb, 1675-1676), 206-209.) Unfortunately,
Eleanor doesn't figure in either, presumably because she was already
married and provided for at the time her parents wrote their wills. Other
Hungerford children are likewise missing from these wills. Excluding
Eleanor, Sir Robert Hungerford and his wife, Margaret, had five known
children: Robert, Jr., William, Arnold, Mary, and Katherine. Of these,
only three are named in Sir Robert's will and only one in Margaret's.
Similarly, only two of the children are mentioned in the Hungerford
pedigree in the 1623 Visitation of Gloucestershire. (Footnote 12: Sir
John Maclean and W. C. Heane, eds., "Visitation of the County of
Gloucester," Harleian Society Publications, 21 (London, 1885), 89.)

As for lands, historian Michael Hicks has shown that at least five
Hampshire manors passed from the Hungerfords to the Whites during
Eleanor's marriage to John White: Bodenham by Fareham, Pennington by
Lymington, and Rockford Moyles, all in 1465, and Binstead Wyke and
Binstead St. Clare, by 1467. (Footnote 13: Michael Hicks, "Richard III
and his Rivals" (London, 1991), 206-207. While this transfer would
normally be ample evidence that Eleanor White was a Hungerford, Hicks
believes the transfer of these manors was part of Margaret Hungerford's
efforts, about 1465, to repay creditors
for the ransom of her son, Robert Jr., who had been wounded and held
captive in Guienne in 1453. (Footnote 14: Lady Margaret Hungerford
itemized expenses in her will totaling 17,463 pounds, which stupendous sum
she claimed to have spent in ransoming her son, Robert Jr., from
captivity.) While the first three of these manors may well have been part
of the ransom effort, the transfer of the last two appears to be undated.
If they went to the White family before 1465, they could well have served
as a maritagium (marriage portion) for Eleanor Hungerford. Whatever the
case, the passage of these manors clearly establishes that the Hungerfords
and Whites were closely associated in this period--a situation one would
expect if there had been intermarriage between them.

In summary, John White's wife was an Eleanor, and two visitations state
that she was "d(aughter) of Rob(ert) Lord Hungerford." Her marital
history shows that she was of status to be a peer's daughter, contracting
at least two marriages to men descended from Edward I, one of whom was
also grandson of an Earl. The social status of Eleanor and her children,
and the history of her descendants, indicate that this family was well
connected. Eleanor is not mentioned in her parents' will, but neither are
several of her siblings. Lastly, at least five manors passed from the
Hungerfords to the
Whites, two of which may have served as her maritagium. While the passage
of these lands do not prove Eleanor's identity, it is typical of the
pattern one finds when such a marriage took place. This writer concludes
that John White's wife, Eleanor, was in fact the daughter of Sir Robert
Hungerford (died 1459), 2nd Lord Hungerford, and his wife, Margaret
Botreaux (died 1478), Lady Botreaux."

snip, snip.



I don't know how James Rasmussen FASG would react should he read your
article. If I was he I'd be more that a little irritable that you had
sought to dismiss his writing with a load of cods wallop.


Tony Ingham


.

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