Re: faux Spanish Dudley (was re: Changing the Sutton/Dudley pedigree...)


"Nathaniel Taylor" <nltaylor@xxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:nltaylor-F41E65.10181429022008@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
In article
<02c781ac-cfce-4615-b1af-1993c5baf353@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>,
mjcar@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx wrote:

On Feb 29, 12:42 pm, Renia <re...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

fortitudine wrote:
Dear member of the Group,

I am a member of the Anglo-Norman family "De Sutton-Dudley" Irish
branch called de Clonard now living in Ireland and UK as well as in
Spain, France and the USA.

My name for all of you is Joseph (alias XXIX Earl of Clonard in Eire
and UK, or in Spain since 1770) and it is a pleasure for me to give
you some clues

You've sent this fascinating information to the wrong group, so I'm
cross-posting it for the delectation of a more appropriate group of
medieval genealogists who will be able to explain to me why your
earldom
doesn't appear in The Complete Peerage.

Actually, Renia, you don't need to go anywhere near the mediaeval
period in order to suss this nutter out.

Have a look at his website. According to his own alleged genealogy,
he has "inherited" the so-called comital title of Clonard from his
paternal grandmother, "Rosario [sic] Blanca, Countess Clonard". I
don't know terribly many British earldoms that pass through the female
line [save some Scots titles, and a tiny handful of special remainders
- eg Arlington, Mountbatten].

Furthermore, "Countess Rosario Blanca" is said to have succeeded her
father, Seraphin, who was himself (wait for it!) the illegitimate son
of Queen Isabel II by the Conde de Clonard.

I know of even fewer British peerages that can survive illegitimacy.

Turning to the mediaeval part of his alleged pedigree, we find that he
claims descent from "Thomas Sutton de Clonard, Count de Clonard", son
of "Sir John de Sutton Dudley Sutton de Clonard [sic], KG, Earl of
Clonard, 1400-1487". This John Sutton was a Knight of the Garter, but
the highest peerage honour he attained was the barony of Dudley,
granted to him in 1440 by means of a writ of summons (see ODNB article
by Hugh Collins).

Furthermore, it seems that we look in vain for a Thomas amongst his
sons: Edmund (the heir apparent, but dvp), John, William and Oliver.

And the wife assigned to this Thomas is equally imaginative: "Mary
Catherine Strange, Lady Norfolk", a maternal line granddaughter to
Ralph Neville, Earl of Westmoreland (1364-1425) - his daughter
Katherine is given a new husband ("Thomas Strange, knight") and a new
title ("Lady Norfolk") - a conflation of her actual title from her
first marriage (Duchess of Norfolk) and her actual second husband (Sir
Thomas Strangways) - see ODNB article by Rowena Archer. [Katherine
Neville did have a daughter Katherine Strangways, but she was the wife
of Henry, 7th Lord Grey of Codnor.]

Conveniently, the apparent lack of historical verification for these
"ancestors" is put down to the fact that "Old Nobility Irish Records
were erased or incinerated following Royal Orders" - a vertiable
bonfire of the vanities, it would seem.

Joseph may be a delightful and well-meaning chap, for all I know, but
he ain't an Earl, and he ain't a Sutton or a Dudley either.

Unfortunately the page he originally linked to his shm delurk appears
not to be up, but the pages in Spanish are more informative, especially:

http://www.suttonclonard.com/Summary_Sp.htm

What isn't readily clear is whether all the recent Spanish ancestors are
fictitious (or fictitiously noble), or merely the alleged Sutton-Dudley
descent. Worth checking in Spanish nobiliaries. At any rate, a
pleasant piece of nuttery.

It would be interesting to know if King Juan Carlos might think it pleasant
to be dragged into this.

There is no mention of an earldom (or any other title) of Clonard existing
in the Jacobite peerage, according to Guy Stair Sainty, see

http://www.chivalricorders.org/nobility/jacobite.htm

Maybe "Sotto" morphed into "Sutton", with all that nuttily follows, after
1997.

Peter Stewart


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