Re: What was a king anyhow? (was Re: Granada - king or Emir ?)

On Jan 27, 2:03 pm, "M.Sjostrom" <q...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Why agnatic succession at all - there must be some
reasons deep in archaic politics, to explain why males
got preference in inheritance patterns.

For those that are agnatic, I don't think we need look further than
the fact that a property was traditionally held by force, and men are
the ones that most successfully apply that force. He who has the club
makes the rules. That being said, many traditional societies practice
a pattern whereby the groups are matrilineal, even though the leaders
are men. (think Picts, but it also applied in some native American
societies)


As to this genetic explanation, it is attractive, but almost entirely
wrong, to attribute it to the unusual inheritance of mtand Y DNA.


Y chromosome is inherited agnatically (in other words,
common to a whole patriline), but only by males,
females do not have the Y. Some hereditary features
(in addition to the gender itself) are inherited in
the genes more or less permanently joined in the Y
chromosome.

There are few recognizable genetic traits that are on the Y chromosome
except those directly related to being male (i.e. the switch). Most
of the genes on the Y have analogs on the X that effectively do the
same thing, or are poorly characterized but are not linked to any
known trait. Yes, there are several that when mutated give you crypto-
gendered or hermaphroditic phenotypes, such as SRY and TDFY that are
required to be male, but it is not like there are characterized
gradations between manly men, and sit-and-belch-in-front-of-the-TV-
watching-football men and men-who-love-Judy-Garland that can be traced
to differences in the Y chromosome.


Many of so-joined hereditary traits are
so-called manly heritage: eagerness, instinctiveness,
depth of interest, to hunting, building, sports and
like.

I don't know that any of these are linked to the Y-chromosome, per se.

Strongly-together-joined parts of the Y
chromosome (i.e, most of it) do not get shuffled at
all, mixed with others, and half left out; when
passing to next generations, but remain very stable
and "wholesome".

(Perhaps not the word you were aiming for.)

Environment and upbringing, as well
as genes in other chromosomes have their effect, but
still: as examples, on one hand a father and a son, on
the other hand paternal brothers, have practically
identical Y chromosome and tend to have fairly similar
keenness between themselves to several "manly" things
and behaviors.

Umm, no. There is no such relationship between 'manliness' and a
shared Y chromosome. Most of the characterized difference in Y
chromosomes are in regions that have no role in gene regulation or
phenotype at all.


It is easy to believe that a son or
brother, agnatic successor, tends to exhibit fairly
similar temperament as the predecessor, because of
their common heritage.

Well, yes, but this is the total genetic heritage from all parts of
the pedigree. Tell me, who did Henry II resemble more in his
initiative and fitness to rule? His father, Geoffrey, or his maternal
grandfather, Henry I?


A ruler will tend to be as good
as a defender and protector as his male-line kinsmen,
which leads to accept agnates of a "good" previous
monarch as natural successors.

I think you would be better served to look at more social causes,
rather than genetic.

The modern science of
genetics has a few interesting if historically
irrelevant things to say about agnatic succession: the
human Y chromosome is unable to recombine with the X
chromosome, except for small pieces of pseudoautosomal
regions at the telomeres (which comprise about 5% of
the chromosome's length).

True, but largely irrelevant to history, except in so much as it
allows independent evaluation of descents.


For genealogy: because the human Y chromosome changes
relatively slowly over time and is only passed along
the direct male line, it may be used to trace
patrilineage. However, in remains of the deceased it
destructs fairly soon, within decades even, to too
small or destruct remnants to facilitate any
meaningful DNA testing.

This is not specific to the Y chromosome - it is a trait common to all
DNA. By the way, more important than breaking of DNA in loss of
signal is the chemical modification of the DNA - acylation,
depurination, etc. The chain is still intact but cannot be copied,
which is how DNA is studied and characterized. Recent breakthroughs
(such as in determining the hair color of Neanderthal through
determination of the sequence of an autosomal gene) have come through
a combination of the development of micro techniques and through
reversing these chemical modifications.


Mitochondrial DNA survives multiply longer times (for
example in bones): centuries, millennia, even longer,

Under very rare circumstances.

in doses big enough to be meaningfully tested and
compared.

This is the key - big doses. mtDNA is no more stable than nuclear
DNA. It is, however, present in hundreds to a thousand copies per
cell, rather than one or two, so while every one is damaged, between
the whole you can put together an intact sequence.

Mt-DNA passes through matriline, and is

(with rare exceptions)

inherited both by sons and daughters of its carrier.
It is common to the whole uterine lineage.
However, rare societies have surnames and succession
to pass along matriline.

Not so rare globally and historically.

Mitochondrial DNA tends to effect to metabolism of the
body, being conducive to energy conversion functions
of the cell. Seemingly, traits of this feature have
not been very important to "rulership character", as
such heritage (body fat?) did not become a factor to
favor in succession.

Again, while the mtDNA provides basic machinery for energy, a visible
phenotype is not likely to be related to a mtDNA difference. The vast
majority of mtDNA mutations cause severe difference - in other words,
these lines would be selected against in any society under stress,
which basically describes the entirety of human history up to the 20th
century. The visible metabolic phenotypes we see are much much MUCH
more likely to be autosomally derived.

taf
.

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