Re: King of Man?

On Jan 13, 11:31�am, Hovite <paulvhe...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
On Jan 13, 3:07 pm, butler...@xxxxxxx wrote:



Good Afternoon Hovite et al,
Yes they were, in fact that is a capital YES!!! The Kings of Mann
after Ling Haarold and after Alexander III King of Scotland and King
of Man, the various Lords were "Crowned" King of Mann and it was under
Edward I of England in his letters, that while he acknowledged the
King of Mann, the King of Scotland he called himself the "Superior
King".

Regarding the Stanley descent starting with John Stanley I, it was
late in his life and has been surmised that he never actually "ruled"
the Isle of Mann, but John Stanley II as the charter of Henry IV was
so broad it was interpreted as such (he was in fact King) and he did
rule as King as did the family from there on out. In fact it was not
until 1677, hearly 250 years later was this fact brought out when the
Bishop of Mann wrote to the Bishop of York to recieve a rulling and
found that they had no power there. In fact no appeals could be made
to the crown or to the church of York so great was their power. This
is not unusual as the Kings of Mann ruled under the Kings of Norway
who had the Isle of Mann until Alexander III and so on, like in
Ireland, England, Wales and elsewhere previously, you had Kings and
a High King, normal for the times. This is the simple version, it is
actually more complicated between the time of Alexander and the
Stanleys but that is the brief story of it.

All that being said: Based on the centuries of charters, pipe rolls
and legal documents,Most in latin, that I have and they are many)
legal precedence, the documents alluded to in the first post
with"Report of the Lords Respecting the Kings Interest" 1607, James
the I and later in 1735 ,regarding James, Duke of Atholl, "Opinion of
Clarenciex King at Arms(Sir John Vanburg) on the accession of James,
Duke of Atholl to the sovernty(His spelling, not mine) Thereof isv
Feb. 1735" regarding the usage of the arms of the Kings of Mann is
granted,(the arms of the King of Mann up until Haarold, were a ship
with sails and a lion, after it was three legs skewed as I would call
it) a VERY winnable case in court could be made for one showing
closest descent(male or female, as they, female lines,(claimants) over
the centuries to the lands and title King of Mann were allowed by the
various English monarchs by the constituition (re 1607,above). You may
have read that in some time periods the Isle of Mann and its titles
were sold or bought, not true, they were Mortgaged, a major
difference! Would the British Crown who now has the title acknowledge
it anyway, probably not, but then again, it depends on a number of
circumstances and the current laws of the Isle of of Mann, which by
the way is rather like the Republic of Ireland in relation to Great
Britian, a Commonwealth nation sort of, but independant. If you could
prove beyond a shadow of a doubt you were the closest claimant living,
be it original stock of the King of Mann, Scottish descent(ownership)
and or English descent(ownership), one could I suppose be "STYLED"
King of Mann and if you could prove this, it might be possible the
College of Heraldry might? issue a grant of arms.

Oh yes, the other Boteler connection, there always is, remember
Richard de Burgo, possibly the richest and most powerful Lord of his
time, who had wardship of Theobald Boteler and married his daughter
Margery to him? He surrendered the Isle of Mann in 1299 to Edward I.

Hope you enjoyed and this answered a few of your questions.
Best regards,
Emmett L. Butler
.

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