Re: A BRIEF Myth and Realty of Michael Flanderais/Le Fleming/de Furness

On Dec 31 2007, 7:52 pm, butler...@xxxxxxx wrote:
On Dec 31, 9:47�am, FDP...@xxxxxxx wrote:





On Dec 30, 11:47 am, butler...@xxxxxxx wrote:

Good Morning,
To sperate the myth and the reality of the decent in an abbreviated
form: � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � �Many
read of Michael Flanderais who came with William the Conquor in 1066,
kinsman of Baldwin, Count of Flanders, in-law to the conquor and yet
ascribe this as the same Michael who granted a charter in 1153 as the
same, it is not likely and is a myth.
Myth 1: If this were so and considering that Michael was only a boy of
10-15 years of age this would have made this Michael at minimum he
would have 96 to101 not counting if he came over as a full-fledged man
in his 20's.
Fact 1: The first that I have found of this Michael is after the
Domesday survey 1086 when Ernulf held 6 caracutes of land in Aldingham
and it is given to Michael le Fleming, this may be the same Michael
above, son of Michael or a different Michael.(Domesday Survey)(Notitia
Cestriensis)
In or about this time after the Cumbria subjugation of 1072 he
recieves;
Fact 2: Arlecdon,Frizington,Roginton,Weddicar, and other lands.
Myth 2: Michael allegedly recieves this from William de Meschines, but
as he DID hold these lands it was probably from Randolph,Williams
father as William was not born until approx. 1102/3.
Fact 3: The next mention of Micheal le Fleming is in 1127 when ?
Stephen confirms his grant to the Abbot at Furness his lands EXCEPTING
those held by Michael le Fleming.
Fact 4: Then a charter granting land to the church of St. Mary of
Furness where his son Daniel is a clerk before 1153.
Fact 5: 1153 this Michael le Fleming described as extremely old,
granted a 2nd charter to the church of St. Mary at Furness.(Furness
Coucher p. 454)
Confirmed by William Count of Bologne(Pipe Rolls p. 307)
(Furness Coucher p. 454)
Fact 6: The above 1153 charter was sighed by William ,Michaels' son
and heir, Gregory his grandson and Hugh.Obviously Gregory was not
Williams heir as Michael is unless Gregory dies and the next Michael
(Gregorys brother)succeeds Gregory. This will be seen below in a later
confirmation of descent.
Myth 3: as MANY secondary sources have this as the original Michael
who died 1175/77 this is not the original Michael as he would be
now130-40 and the Michael of 1086/1127 would be around 100 years of
age.
Fact 7: William son and heir of Michael confirms what his father had
granted in exchange for Berdsea. Michael, son of William(preceeding)
son of Michael confirmed the same. This Michael is when the family is
called de Furness. It is this Michael that died in 1175/77.
Further confirmation, " I William, son of Michael son of William de
Furness confirm to the abbot of Furness what my grandfather did give,
Crimelton and Ros with the fisheries....)(Antiquities of Furness,
p100) It is this William de Furness/Fleming, reached his majority and
recieved livery of his lands 1186(Pipe Rolls p.60) died before
4/18/1204 (Patent Rolls p.41) that married Alyna dau. of Thomas
fitzCospatric who she married 2nd William Pincerna(LeBoteler) 1215/16.
I have no �brith or marriage date of Alyna, but if she were even 15
years of age when she married de Furness and soon after he came of age
she would have approx 45 when she married William Pincerna, if not
older.
I hope you have enjoyed!
Best Regards,
Emmett L. Butler

Dear Emmett

I suggest you go to the following URL and begin on page 67 which will
lay out for you much interesting suggested history of Michael le
Fleming's ancestry.

Also VCH Lancs Vol 8 page 300 &300n (available on British History on
line) says that William, Michael's (1127) son, attested a charter in
about 1157 and succeeded his father before 1186. If true, then
William's birth must be much closer to 1135-40 than is shown at most
sites (abt 1150).

The Early History of the Stricklands of Sizergh - This book is a study
of the Strickland family origins in England. It was written by S. H.
Lee Washington and published in 1942. Thanks to Nancy J. Capps for
making it available online to Strickland researchers.

� � �Pages 1-34
� � �Pages 35-68
� � �Pages 69-100

http://www.rockystrickland.com/strickland.htm

Sincerely yours,

Dix Preston- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Good Evening Dix and All,
Unfortunately, only some of the data to the URL that you gave me will
come up. I have Adobe 8.0 and beyond so should more than handle it but
not all the sites come  up yet alone starting at page 67.(not at all)
Regarding the VCL Lancs online, I have been informed and am in
"General" agreement that it is a secondary source, not a primary
source.

You are seeing in general what I am saying, the Michael referred to in
1127, King Stephens charter and later exemplification  excepting the
lands of Michael le Fleming in 1127, may or may not be the same
Michael of 1072 or 1086 and is probably the same Michael of the
charter granting lands to St. Marys of Furness in 1153, but definitely
NOT the Michael that died in 1175/77 and more than sure it is not the
Michael alluded to as coming over with William the Conquoror 1066.

Further, you are correct, the William that confirmed the 1153 grant to
St. Marys Church in Furness in abt. 1157 and also was a witness and
listed as son and heir to the said Michael le Fleming to the 1153
grant, is NOT the same William who in 1186 reached "his majority and
received livery of his lands(Pipe Rolls p.60). The 1186 William was
the son and heir of another Michael le Fleming listed in my previous
post as reconofirming the 1153 grant where he states he(William) is
the son of Michael son of William, it is the William of 1186 that
married Alyna de Furness who later married william Pincerna(Le
Boteler).

I know my style of writing can be confusing so I am putting a short
time/name descent together.

'A side bar of interest, a most good friend of mine was married to a
Strickland and her two children go by their fathers name and they are
most appreciative of the website you have provided, I hope they have
better luck than I in getting them to open.
Best Regards,
Emmett L. Butler- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Good Morning Will Johnson, Dix et al,
Below is an abbreviated form of how I see things based on charters and
pipe rolls, etc. feel free to comment or add.

Michael I same as Michael Flandernais
Michael II
Michael III
William I
William II

1066 William the Conquoror comes
(MICHAEL I)-alledged kinsman of Baldwin, Count of Flanders, in-law to
the Conquoror

1072 Subjugation of Cumbria

1072 Held Arlecdon,Frizington,Rogington,Wedicar and other lands
(MICHAEL I) or (MICHAEL II)

1086 6 caracutes in Aldingham by Ernulf afterwards of Michael
Flandernais
(Domesday survey 1086)- (Notitia Centriensis)
(MICHAEL I) or (MICHAEL II)

1127 Confirmation of the grant to Furness Abbey by King Stephen
"except the lands held by Michael le Fleming"
(Antiquities of the Furness Charters)
MICHAEL II

Abt 1152 "Grant to St Mary of Furness, grant of land where Daniel the
clerk my son"
(Antiquities of the Furness Charters)
MICHAEL II

1153 Grant to St. Mary of Furness"with the consent of William my son
and heir and all my children. Witnesses, Micheal Le Fleming, William
his son, Gregory his grandson and Hugh" Micheal le Fleming is desribed
as extremely old in this charter.
(Furness Coucher, p. 455) Confirmed by William Count of Bologne(Pipe
Roll p. 307) (Furness Coucher p. 454)
MICHAEL II

1157 Confirmation of the 1153 charter, "I William, son and heir of
Micheal confirm what his father did give...."
(Antiquities of the Furness Charters)
WILLIAM I

After 1157- before 1175 I, Michael son of William son of Michael
confirm the same....)
(Antiquities of the Furness Charters)
MICHAEL III

1175/77 Michael III dies after Michaelmas William II is in wardship of
the King.
(Quare Volumnus)
MICHAEL III

1186 William II is at his majority and receives livery of his lands
(Pipe Rolls p. 60)
William II

After 1186 before 1204 William confirms the 1157 confirmation of the
1153 charter " I, William son of Michael son of William de Furness
confirm to the abbot of Furness what my grandfather did give Crimelton
and Ros with the fisheries....."
(Antiquities of the Furness Charter, p. 100)
WILLIAM II

After 1186 before 1204 William II marries Alyna daughter of Thomas
fitzCospatric
WILLIAM II

1203 William II is dead. before 4/18/1204 William II dies.
(Pipe Rolls p. 41)
WILLIAM II

1203/4 Henry fitzHervius has wardship of William II's son Michael le
Fleming IV
(Lanes Pipe Rolls 180) (Furness Coucher, pp. 464-465)
MICHAEL IV

1204 Alyna de Furness pays 50 marks and 2 palfreys for license to
marry whom she will and for dower and a share of her late husbands
chattels...)
(Pipe Rolls p. 180)
Wife of WILLIAM II mother of MICHAEL IV

1213/15 William Pincerna(Le Boteler) petitions the king to marry
Alyna de Furness
(Pipe Rolls p.232)

I hope this makes things abit more clear, there are many other
charters, grants, fines, etc. but this is the abbeviated form. Please
feel free to add and comment.
Best Regards.
Emmett L. Butler

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