Re: "Once Removed" In French

On Dec 19, 11:30 am, John Brandon <starbuc...@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
You got a friend, as in JLA bud Renia?

JLA? Whodat?

Maybe he means JO bud Renia ...?

From: Renia <renia@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: "Once Removed" In French
Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2007 18:03:53 +0200

letiTiAflufF@xxxxxxxxx wrote:


Certainly superior to MA-R's tacky little poem
about
the vestry
busybodies ...


MA-R as in mjcar@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx's

sock puppet as in Candide John Brandon?

You got a friend, as in JLA bud Renia?

JLA? Whodat?


From: John Brandon <starbuck95@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: "Once Removed" In French
Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2007 08:30:25 -0800 (PST)

You got a friend, as in JLA bud Renia?

JLA? Whodat?

Maybe she means JO bud Renia ...?

http://www.jlaforums.com/viewtopic.php?p=11067101

When nepos/nepoti/nepotis means kinsman

JLA FORUMS Index -> Miscellaneous Politics ->
Royalty

John Briggs

Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 11:47 am Post subject:
Re:
When nepos/nepoti/nepotis means kinsman

Jan Böhme wrote:
Quote:
On 16 Dec, 16:37, "John Briggs"
<john.brig...@xxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Jan Böhme wrote:
On 14 Dec, 19:08, "John Briggs"
<john.brig...@xxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

Strictly speaking, Colin is a pet form, rather than
a
nickname.

I thought pet forms were included under nicknames,
rather than
being a different category. At least from a
standpoint
of
etymology, a nickname is anything that you're called
that isn't
your name.

In which case they aren't strictly nicknames - we
should be talking
about hypocoristic names, and they are mostly
diminutives or double
diminutives.

But there is no semantic difference between "pet
name"
and
"hypocoristic name", is there? The latter just
sounds
more fancy, and
suggests a little more that one knows what one is
talking about,
that's all.


The semantic difference is that hypocoristic names
are
not nicknames. I was
mistaken in trying to perpetuate a distinction
between
nick forms and pet
forms for diminutives.

Quote:
In a very real sense, they *were* your name, in a
way
that epithets
and pejorative nicknames weren't.

Now we're getting into philosophy, but are really
things that you
always are called by your intimate friends
necessarily
more your name
than things that you always are called by your
enemies?

This said, I agree that, for instance the more or
less
fossilised
diminutives of Russian names must be regarded as
proper names. If a
certain name form is compulsory whenever you use
first
name alone,
then it is a compulsory variant of a proper name.


We are dealing with the special circumstances of
medieval England, where
there was distinct shortage of names.

"Will was a distinct youth from Willot, Willot from
Wilmot, Wilmot from
Wilkin, and Wilkin from Wil***. There might be half
a
dozen Johns about the
farmstead, but it mattered little so long as one was
called Jack, another
Jenning, a third Jenkin, a fourth Jack*** (now
Jacox
as a surname), a fifth
Brownjohn, and a sixth Micklejohn, or Littlejohn, or
Properjohn (i.e. well
built or handsome)."

Charles W. Bardsley, Curiosities of Puritan
Nomenclature.
--
John Briggs

Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 12:02 pm Post subject:
Re:
When nepos/nepoti/nepotis means kinsman

Renia wrote:
Piggybacking.
Douglas Richardson wrote:

As I've stated in previous posts over the years on
soc.genealogy.medieval, Colin is the medieval
nickname
in England
of Nicholas, just as Colette was the female nickname
for Nichole.

Colette is the shortened form or diminutive of the
French name,
Nicolette. With that in mind, I can see the
reasoning
for Colin being
a French diminutive for Nicholas (pron. Col-ann).


For that you'd need to find it in France. But he's
just tying himself in
knots - as I said, he'd be hard pressed to find
examples of "Colette" from
England.
--
John Briggs

Renia

Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 3:09 pm Post subject:
Re:
When nepos/nepoti/nepotis means kinsman

David wrote:

Quote:
On Dec 16, 4:30 am, "Jan Böhme" <jan.bo...@xxxxx>
wrote:

On 15 Dec, 05:09, David <ds...@xxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:


Obviously "Henri" (of which "Henry" is only a
spelling
variant)

Indeed - used as an alternative (albeit
progressively
more unusual) in
French to this day.
could be used *in English* in 1258.

Yes, but that doesn't prove anything as to whether
the
name so used in
an English text actually is an English name, rather
than a French one.
I can give you lots of quotes in contemporary
English
texts containing
the name "Hu Yaobang". You surely wouldn't use this
as
a proof that
"Hu Yaobang" is an English name.

The problem here is that the French name Henri/Henry
may well be
written exactly the same way as the English name
"Henry". However,
_if_ John is correct that the original English
pronunciation of
"Henry" is "Harry", then one can fairly assume that
all occurrences of
"Henry" before the first appearance of "Harry" in an
English text
actually refer to the French name.

Jan Böhme


That's the sort of argument that is non-falsifiable:
any instance of
"Henry" in an English text can be deemed French, and
only instances of
"Harry" will be found to be English!


Not really. It's to do with pronounciation. Henry in
French and Harry in
English sound similar, particularly if you take into
account the English
lack of talent for adopting French accents.

Renia

Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 3:09 pm Post subject:
Re:
When nepos/nepoti/nepotis means kinsman

David wrote:

Quote:

Of course in the 13th century the distinction is
meaningless; the name
is not an Anglo-Saxon one (although Saxon*ized*
versions of it appear,
e.g. "Heanric", "Heinric", with reference to
foreigners) and early
English instances of it are going to be "French",
that
is, used by
people influenced by the nomenclature habitual to
the
Norman-Angevin-
French ruling class -- which by the 13th century was
pretty much
everybody in England.

Really?

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John Briggs


Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 3:09 pm Post subject:
Re:
When nepos/nepoti/nepotis means kinsman

edespalais@xxxxxxxx wrote:
Quote:

When will somebody quote the word "nepos" as it
should
be quoted
correctly ("nepoti", may appear in the original
text;
but that is an
other business!)?


Do you actually have anything to contribute, or are
you just whingeing?
--
John Briggs


John Briggs

Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 3:19 pm Post subject:
Re:
When nepos/nepoti/nepotis means kinsman

Renia wrote:
Quote:
David wrote:

Of course in the 13th century the distinction is
meaningless; the
name is not an Anglo-Saxon one (although Saxon*ized*
versions of it
appear, e.g. "Heanric", "Heinric", with reference to
foreigners) and
early English instances of it are going to be
"French", that is,
used by people influenced by the nomenclature
habitual
to the
Norman-Angevin- French ruling class -- which by the
13th century was
pretty much everybody in England.

Really?


"Before many generations had passed, Bartholomew,
Simon, Peter, Philip,
Thomas, Nicholas, John and Elias, had engrossed a
third of the male
population; yet the Domesday Book has no Philip, no
Thomas, only one
Nicholas, and but a sprinkling of Johns. It was not
long before Jack and
Jill took the place of Godric and Godgivu as
representative of the English
sexes, yet Jack was from the Bible, and Jill from
the
saintly Calendar."

Charles W. Bardsley, Curiosities of Puritan
Nomenclture, p.2.
--
John Briggs


Renia

Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 4:40 pm Post subject:
Re:
When nepos/nepoti/nepotis means kinsman



John Briggs wrote:
Quote:
Renia wrote:



Well, there was one Thomas. He was Archbishop of
York,
also known as
Thomas of Bayeux. There were 5 men called Nicholas
in
Domesday Book.
Ncolaus Aurifaber was goldsmith to Earl Hugh of
Chester. Nicolaus
Balistarius appeared in Domesday Devon. A tenand of
William de Warenne
in Cambridgeshire, was Nicolaus De Kenet. A man
called
Nicolaus was
tenant of Abingdon Abbey, and another appears in
Staffordshire and was
probably sheriff. There were ten people called John,
3
called Simon and
8 called Peter in Domesday Book.

John Briggs


Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 4:56 pm Post subject:
Re:
When nepos/nepoti/nepotis means kinsman

Renia wrote:
Quote:
John Briggs wrote:
Renia wrote:

David wrote:

Of course in the 13th century the distinction is
meaningless; the
name is not an Anglo-Saxon one (although Saxon*ized*
versions of it
appear, e.g. "Heanric", "Heinric", with reference to
foreigners)
and early English instances of it are going to be
"French", that
is, used by people influenced by the nomenclature
habitual to the
Norman-Angevin- French ruling class -- which by the
13th century
was pretty much everybody in England.

Really?


"Before many generations had passed, Bartholomew,
Simon, Peter,
Philip, Thomas, Nicholas, John and Elias, had
engrossed a third of
the male population; yet the Domesday Book has no
Philip, no Thomas,
only one Nicholas, and but a sprinkling of Johns. It
was not long
before Jack and Jill took the place of Godric and
Godgivu as
representative of the English sexes, yet Jack was
from
the Bible,
and Jill from the saintly Calendar." Charles W.
Bardsley, Curiosities of
Puritan Nomenclture, p.2.

Well, there was one Thomas. He was Archbishop of
York,
also known as
Thomas of Bayeux. There were 5 men called Nicholas
in
Domesday Book.
Ncolaus Aurifaber was goldsmith to Earl Hugh of
Chester. Nicolaus
Balistarius appeared in Domesday Devon. A tenand of
William de Warenne
in Cambridgeshire, was Nicolaus De Kenet. A man
called
Nicolaus was
tenant of Abingdon Abbey, and another appears in
Staffordshire and was
probably sheriff. There were ten people called John,
3
called Simon
and 8 called Peter in Domesday Book.


Perhaps he meant TRE?
--
John Briggs

Renia


Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 5:02 pm Post subject:
Re:
When nepos/nepoti/nepotis means kinsman

John Briggs wrote:

Quote:
Renia wrote:

John Briggs wrote:

Renia wrote:


David wrote:

Perhaps he meant TRE?


Domesday Book is Domesday Book. If he meant during
the
time of Edward,
he would have said so, I imagine.

Bryn

Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 5:32 pm Post subject:
Re:
When nepos/nepoti/nepotis means kinsman



Needing no introduction "an" Usenet stalwart wrote:
Quote:
On 16 déc, 19:06, David <ds...@xxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
On Dec 16, 4:30 am, "Jan Böhme" <jan.bo...@xxxxx>
wrote:



On 15 Dec, 05:09, David <ds...@xxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

Obviously "Henri" (of which "Henry" is only a
spelling
variant)

Indeed - used as an alternative (albeit
progressively
more unusual) in
French to this day.

could be used *in English* in 1258.

Yes, but that doesn't prove anything as to whether
the
name so used in
an English text actually is an English name, rather
than a French one.
I can give you lots of quotes in contemporary
English
texts containing
the name "Hu Yaobang". You surely wouldn't use this
as
a proof that
"Hu Yaobang" is an English name.

The problem here is that the French name Henri/Henry
may well be
written exactly the same way as the English name
"Henry". However,
_if_ John is correct that the original English
pronunciation of
"Henry" is "Harry", then one can fairly assume that
all occurrences of
"Henry" before the first appearance of "Harry" in an
English text
actually refer to the French name.

Jan Böhme

That's the sort of argument that is non-falsifiable:
any instance of
"Henry" in an English text can be deemed French, and
only instances of
"Harry" will be found to be English!

Of course in the 13th century the distinction is
meaningless; the name
is not an Anglo-Saxon one (although Saxon*ized*
versions of it appear,
e.g. "Heanric", "Heinric", with reference to
foreigners) and early
English instances of it are going to be "French",
that
is, used by
people influenced by the nomenclature habitual to
the
Norman-Angevin-
French ruling class -- which by the 13th century was
pretty much
everybody in England.

Given what is known about the history and
transmission
of the name, I
see no reason to suppose that "Harry" is the
"original
pronunciation"
of "Henry" in English -- the "original
pronunciation"
would have been
the closest approximation of French "Henri" in an
English mouth in the
11th century, when the name was introduced. I do not
know enough
about medieval Norman-French to know exactly what
that
would have
been, but all the borrowings of French -en- into
English that I think
of are pronounced with a lax e-sound, and are
sharply
distinct from -
an- (which frequently became labialized to -aun-).
The
Anglo-Saxon
"Heanric" types -- if they were at all propagated
and
not displaced by
new Norman-French pronunciations -- would also
naturally have
developed into "Henry". That a pronunciation [hari]
or
[har:i]
eventually arose is certain, and it may even have
been
fairly early,
but it seems most probable that it's derived
directly
from a name
pronounced, more or less, [hEnri]. Whether the [a]
of
the name is
from the frequent change of English [Er] to [ar], or
is influenced by
the French change of [E~] to [a~], I don't know, but
the probability
of a change *within* English seems greater than the
likelihood of
"Henri" being borrowed ab initio with the
*pronunciation* [har:i].
The use of an initial [h] is a rather strong
indication that the
spelling was being followed, unless [h] was
conserved,
or
reintroduced, in Norman-French.

When will somebody quote the word "nepos" as it
should
be quoted
correctly ("nepoti", may appear in the original
text;
but that is an
other business!)?


Pompeii ex filia nepos O:-)

--
Moon-daubed bush-clover--
ssh, in the next room
snoring prostitutes.

Bashõ





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From: "John Briggs" <john.briggs4@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: Example of Colette in English medieval
record/Neptis as niece
Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2007 19:48:40 GMT
References:
<1645df3e-c38d-4c91-bdbb-5bfffe6fcdda@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx><fkbsh6$lrm$2@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>

Renia wrote:

From: Renia <renia@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: Example of Colette in English medieval
record/Neptis as niece
Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2007 21:48:00 +0200
References:
<1645df3e-c38d-4c91-bdbb-5bfffe6fcdda@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>

In-Reply-To:
<1645df3e-c38d-4c91-bdbb-5bfffe6fcdda@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>

of Dudley (in Sedgley), Staffordshire, which lady
was one of the
sisters and co-heirs of Hugh d'Aubeney,

Is that a French surname I see before me?
Is that a French surname I see before me?

He's not listening :-)
--
John Briggs



http://www.jlaforums.com/viewtopic.php?p=11067101


From: Renia <renia@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: "Once Removed" In French
Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2007 18:03:53 +0200

letiTiAflufF@xxxxxxxxx wrote:


Certainly superior to MA-R's tacky little poem
about
the vestry
busybodies ...




MA-R as in mjcar@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx's

sock puppet as in Candide John Brandon?

You got a friend, as in JLA bud Renia?

JLA? Whodat?

(c) 1998-2007 JLA ENTERPRISES TECHNOLOGIES INTEGRATION
Powered by phpBB (c) 2001, 2007 phpBB Group

From: John Brandon <starbuck95@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: "Once Removed" In French
Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2007 08:30:25 -0800 (PST)

You got a friend, as in JLA bud Renia?

JLA? Whodat?

Maybe he means JO bud Renia ...?

http://www.jlaforums.com/viewtopic.php?p=11067101


From: Renia <renia@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: Example of Colette in English medieval record/Neptis as niece
Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2007 23:40:39 +0200

Douglas Richardson wrote:
On Dec 19, 12:48 pm, Renia <re...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

< Is that a French surname I see before me?

What do you mean, Renia?
Renia wrote:

Is that a French surname I see before me?
Is that a French surname I see before me?

He's not listening :-)
--
John Briggs


John Brandon's sock puppet John Briggs
holding hands with JLA bud Renia
cross-posting to gen-medieval
JLA forum whodats
Renia wrote:

whodat? whodat? whodat?

Is that a Renia I see before me?

is that a sock puppet John Briggs I see before me?

~Bret, scion of Charle de Magne

http://Back-stabbing Ancestral Descendants ASSoc.genealogy.medieval
.

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