Re: Gregoras Iberitzes, a Bagratid descendant?

On 22 juil, 09:08, "Peter Stewart" <p_m_stew...@xxxxxxx> wrote:
"pierre_aro...@xxxxxxxxxxx" <pierre_aro...@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message

news:1185041359.819752.55270@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

<snip>

- Psellos claims a line from Constantine X to a Panthèrios, most
probably a matrilineal line since of the three names he mentions
(Andronikos, Kônstantinos and Panthèrios), only the last one is not
used in the Doux/Doukas family.

- The name of Panthèrios points to the Sklèroi and is mentioned
because it was the first prominent figure in that line.

- Andronikos Doukas Lydos supported the revolt of Bardas Sklèros and
had a son named Bardas, all which strongly suggest he was married to a
Sklèraina, eventually a daughter of Bardas Sklèros.

No doubt there is room for interpretation of the passage by Psellos,
especially as to whether the term 'propappous' applied literally to all or
any of the three individuals named as relatives of Konstantinos X through
both his parents.

Psellos does not say that the relations was maternal and paternal but
that they were in the male and female line: so the relation in female
line can be through any of the spouses of Constantine X' ancestors in
the male line, not necessarily his mother.

However, since Andronikos was named before Konstantinos, I
think we have to assume Psellos meant the very famous father and son who
died ca 910 and in 913 respectively, rather than a later namesake of either
man.

I don't think my reconstitution contradicts that: my point was that
according to Psellos Constantine X was a descendant of the Sklèroi in
female line and of the Doukai in male line, that we have from another
source a probable intermediary marriage of an Andronikos Doukas and a
Sklèraina and so that this Andronikos Doukas must be placed in the
ascendancy of Constantine. For anthroponomical reasons he must be
Constantine X's great grandfather and it happens that it fits well
chronologically.

He can of course be himself a descendant of Andronikos and Constantine
Doux, as I suggested in the possible line I posted two days ago. In
that case, the text of Psellos would be perfectly coherent.

There must have been possible links between the Doukai and the Skleroi
in several generations, whether or not the specific unknown lines involved
to these three luminaries were ancestral or collateral.

I do not see how a collateral relation with the Sklèroi would be
particularly illustrated by the name of Panthèrios: Psellos would have
spoken of a chronologically closer figure, as Bardas. For me, it is
clear that he speaks here of an ancestor.

It is also worth recalling that the name Michael occurred in the family
before Konstantinos X's son: Konstantinos Doux had a nephew of this name who
was also killed in the rebellion of June/July 913. Assuming this was a
Michael Doux/Doukas, the name could have been transmitted through him -
especially if the later Doukai were agnatic descendants and proud enough of
their celebrated predecessors to go on bestowing their names rather than
adopting new ones from influential connections on the distaff side, such as
Michael Keroularios or indeed Michael Psellos himself.

I don't think so: it would be an explanation if Constantine X's father
was named Michael, but he was not and so the name can not have been
"transmitted" in that way. That name would have to be readopted
voluntarily for a specific reason. But Michael Doux was not such a
prominent figure to disturb the normal transmission of surname from
grandfather to grandson five generations after his death. Moreover,
Michael is a very common name, much more than Andronikos, and its
resurfacing can be explained in a better way by the contemporary
context than by a remote and shadowy ancestor bearing a very common
name. Clearly, the family names of the Doukai which identified them
were Andronikos and Kônstantinos.

Anyway, being a descendant of Michaèl Doux would not prevent
Constantine X to be a descendant of Andronikos Doukas Lydos, which was
my point here.

However, with a line through Michaèl Doux, you have more difficulty to
explain the transmission of the name Andronikos (the more specific and
rare at the time and so the more useful for our little game). Indeed,
Michaèl Doux was a grandson of Andronikos Doux and obviously he did
not bear his name, so he could not have transmitted that name to his
own grandson by a simple mechanical way. He could have done that by
anthroponomical voluntarism of course, but that would suppose then a
second violation of the general rule in the same line. Not impossible,
but I find my hypothetical line more likely.

Pierre

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