Re: The Turvilles of Weston Turville
- From: mjcar@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
- Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2007 04:21:28 -0700
On 1 Jun., 21:29, m...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx wrote:
Roger, who held Weston Turville of the Bishop of Bayeux in 1086
according to the Domesday Survey, is traditionally assigned as an
ancestor of the de Turville family of Weston Turville.
He also held land of the Bishop at Bedgrove, Bierton, Horsenden,
Chalfont St Peter, Amersham, Chesham, Taplow, West Wycombe,
Saunderton, Whaddon, Draton Parslow and Westbury.
Strangely, I cannot seem to locate this Roger in "Domesday People" -
can anyone else?
Although in some sources his son is said to be Geoffrey de Turville (d
shortly after 1124), according to Domesday Descendants, this Geoffrey
was called "fitz Osbern de Tourville". I am also unable to locate a
reference to this Geoffrey fitz Osbern in DD (or to this Osbern in DD
or DP), although there are entries for three of his sons, viz Geoffrey
(Gaufrid), Ralph (Radulf) and William.
Kay Allen has kindly confirmed that Roger is often identified with
"Roger the son of Ansketil", of whom Keats-Rohan says:
"Roger filius Ansketil: Norman, Domesday tenant in Kent (sic) of Odo
of Bayeux. Ansketil of Maltot (Calvados, cat. Evrecy) and his son
Roger occur in charters for Saint-Etienne de Caen of the 1080s (Actes
Caen. 7 & 18)"
These Kentish holdings in 1086 included Eastling and Hastingleigh.
This identification appears to be confirmed by a reference to Weston
Turville having been held in the time of Henry I (r 1100-1135) by
"Roger the son of Anketill" (VCH Bucks, II, p 366, citing Curia Regis
R. 55, m 8). Lipscombe (Bucks, II, p 492-3) says "It is extremely
probable that the family of Turville, from which this place [ie Weston
Turville] took its distinguishing appellation, was descended from the
same Roger." Lipscombe adds the following two pedigrees:
(A) from Harl MS 301, f 160:
1. Anketil, father of
2. Roger, temps Henry I, father of
3. Isabella, mother of
4. Herbelies (sic) [ie Herbert de Bolebec]
5. Gilbertus [de Bolebec]
According to Keats-Rohan (DD), Gilbert fitz Herbert de Bolebec ff 1166
and was dead by 1185, leaving an 18 year old son, and "his father held
his fee in Bucks in the time of Henry I". This is certainly not an
inconsistent chronology with the above stemma.
(B) from Rot. Claus. 6 Henry III M n 6 (Cardigan MSS)
1. William de Turville, married Isabella; father of
2. William de Turville, married Matilda de Hastings; father of three
daughters and coheirs
3a. Cecily, married Roger de Craft
3b. Isabella, married Watham de Percot
3c. Petronilla, married Simon de Turville
VCH Bucks sub Weston Turville says of this family: "(In 1212) the
Turvilles were in seisin. How they became possessed... is also lost
in obscurity but they may have obtained it through another daughter
and heiress of Roger son of Anketill." They refer to Simon de
Turville as "Simon de Crewelton".
VCH Bucks III, pp 236-7, sub Penn, detail how the two holdings of
Roger, Bishop's Odo's Domesday tenant in Amersham and Chesham, became
the manor and parish of Penn. "William de Turville and Isabella his
wife [held] 1197-1200 (Pedes Finium); William was succeeded by his
son, another William, dead before 1222 when his widow Maud and Isabel
(sic) disputed as to their respective diaries [it seems this is meant
to refer to Isabella, widow of the elder William, and Maud de
Hastings, widow of the younger, as per the Cardigan MS pedigree]
(Maitland, Bracton's Note Book, ii, 165-7); Penn was divided between
the sisters (sic) and heirs of William: Cecily, wife of Roger Croft
(sic), Parnel, wife of Simon de Creulton, and Isabel, wife of Walhamet
le Poure (sic). Isabel died without issue (Assize Roll 63 m 11) and
in 1224 the Crofts subinfeudinated to the Penns. The Crofts' right as
at 1361 had descended to Ella (sic) le Botiller."
A footnote to this adds that: "Cecily Croft's son Roger died without
issue 1355 (Cal IPM Henry III 87) leaving three sisters as coheirs:
Cecily, Isabella and Beatrice; Cecily died without issue; Isabella was
succeeded by her son Hugh de Herdeburgh, holding in 1254 - he was
grandfather of Ella le Botiller and Isabel her sister, mentioned in
1286 (Assize Roll, supra) and 1296 (Cal IPM 25 Ed I no 51b);
Beatrice's son Nicholas de Charneles held rights in Penn in 1286 and
was succeeded by 1296 by George de Charneles."
It therefore seems that there is no certainty as to any genealogical
connection between Roger fitz Anketil and the subsequent Turville
family. Additionally, it is unclear whether Cecily, Isabella and
Petronilla de Turville were sisters or daughters of the younger
William de Turville.
- The Turvilles of Weston Turville
- From: mjcar
- The Turvilles of Weston Turville