Re: ? Comyn wife of Malise

Monday, 12 February, 2007



Dear Will, Tim, 'Grothenwell', James, & c.,

Concerning the Comyn daughter who was wife of Malise of
Strathearn, I had theorized in 2005 that she was in fact Margaret,
identified as wife of Sir John de Keith (see copy of post below)
who was 2ndly married to Earl Malise. The reasons for same are
given in that post: the wife Emma I suggest was of another
family, and not mother of the next Earl Malise.

Scots Peerage, sub _Comyn, Earl of Buchan_ , states in part,
'Malise, Earl of Strathearn, had a wife Emma, in 1261-1267, whose
surname is unknown '[SP II:256, cites Cal. of Docs., i. 2383, 2451].
This would actually not be a problem with this construction; Sir
John de Keith d. sometime before 1270, so that his widow (Margaret)
would have been "available" sometime after Emma.

This was of course a conjecture; it does have the benefit
of working with a known relationship between Muriel Keith and
Reginald le Cheyne. Any further relevant documentation would
of course be welcome.

Cheers,

John





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Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
From: Therav3@xxxxxxx
Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2005 03:22:43 +0000 (UTC)
Local: Sun, Dec 4 2005 10:22 pm
Subject: SP Correction: Marjory Comyn, wife (1st) of John de Keith


Sunday, 4 December, 2005

Hello All,


The account in Scots Peerage concerning the family of Keith says
of Sir John de Keith (d. ca. 1270) that he was said to have married
Margaret Comyn, who may have been a daughter of William Comyn, earl
of Buchan [1]. This identification, of the uncertain ("said to
have been") variety, can now be corrected based on the following
dispensation, dated at Fondi on 14 Jan 1378/9::


' Reg Aven 215, 50
To the bishop of Moray. Faculty to dispense Reginald Cheyn,
donzel, and Murielle, damselle, daughter of Sir William de Keth,
of Moray and Aberdeen dioceses, from the impediment to marriage
arising from the third and fourth degrees of consanguinity.
Fondi, 19 Kal. Feb., anno 1.
SRO Vat. Trans., iv, no. 46. ' [2]


Muriel Keith, the future 2nd wife of Robert Stewart, 1st Duke of
Albany (d. 1420), was contracted to marry Reginald le Cheyne, son of
Sir Reginald le Cheyne by his wife (as her first husband), Helen of
Strathearn. While there are notable gaps in the ancestry of Muriel
Keith, she and Reginald le Cheyne do share a descent from the
Comyns. However, this is too distant to require a dispensation if
Muriel was a great-great-great granddaughter of William Comyn, Earl
of Buchan (d. 1233), which would be the case if Margaret Comyn (her
ancestress) was Earl William’s daughter.


Interestingly, the chronology of the generations here, taken
together with the dispensation above, supplies a ready answer:


1. Sir John de Keith, husband of Margaret Comyn (alleged in the
SP Keith account), died ca. 1270.


2. Reginald le Cheyne was a great-grandson of Marjory Comyn,
daughter of Alexander Comyn, Earl of Buchan (d. 1290), son
of William Comyn mentioned above. Her son was Malise, Earl
of Strathearn from 1312 to his death in 1328 [3], and
grandfather of Reginald.


There is one discernable basis on which the relationship
between Reginald le Cheyne and Muriel Keith would have existed: if
Margaret Comyn, wife of Sir John de Keith (d. ca. 1270), was
identical to Marjory Comyn, and married 2ndly to Malise, Earl of
Strathearn (d. 1312). This would mean the parentage ‘said to have
been’ that of Margaret, wife of Sir John de Keith, was off one
generation: she would not have been the daughter of William Comyn,
Earl of Buchan, but rather of his son Alexander. There is no
evidence that Earl Malise and Marjory Comyn were married much
before 1275: as Lindsay wrote,


' The wife of this earl, about 1275, was named Marjory, as we
understand the attesting clause of No. cv., and is stated by
Wyntoun, Book VIII. chap. vi., to have been the second sister
of John Comyn, Earl of Buchan, who negotiated on behalf of
Earl Malise the marriage settlement above mentioned [dated at
London, April 26, 1293 for his daughter Matilda and Robert de
Tony, son of Ralph].' [4]


The relationship between Reginald le Cheyne and Muriel Keith
would then be shown as follows:


[NOTE: this chart is conjectural, but deemed probable.]


Alexander Comyn = Elizabeth de Quincy
E of Buchan I
__________________I________________
I III
1) Sir John = Marjory = 2) Malise <siblings>
de Keith I (als I E of Strathearn
d.ca. 1270 I Margaret) I d. 1312
_____________I__ ___I__________________________
I I I I I I
Sir William Bernard Malise Gilbert Robert Maud
de Keith de Keith E of = Robert
d. bef 1293 Strathearn; d. 1328 de Tony
I ______I_______________________
I I I I
Sir Edward Malise Mary Helen
= Isabella de E of Strathearn = 1) Sir Reginald
Synton d. ca. 1343 I le Cheyne
I I I = 2) Sir David
I V I I de Graham
Sir William de I I__________
Keith I I
= Margaret Fraser __________________I_______ V
__I_____________ I I I
III I I I I
<siblings> Muriel + Reginald Mary Mariota
Keith le Cheyne
(= Robert
Stewart,
Duke of Albany)


Reginald le Cheyne likely never married Muriel Keith, and is
known to have died sine prole. Robert Stewart and Muriel Keith
had a dispensation to marry dated 4 May 1380, so Reginald likely
died some time before that date [5], probably before the planned
marriage occurred. The foregoing solution, in addition to
correcting the Keith-Comyn ancestry, will also enhance same with
descents from Roger de Quincy, Earl of Winchester and his wife
Elen/Helen of Galloway (including Magna Carta, Carolingian and
other interesting ancestry).


Hope this is of interest. Should anyone have further
documentation, comment, or criticism, that will be most welcome.


Cheers,


John *


NOTES


[1] SP VI:28-29


[2] Charles Burns, ed., Calendar of Papal Letters to Scotland of
Clement VII of Avignon (1378-1394), p. 21.


[3] SP VIII:247, sub _Ancient Earls of Strathearn_. See also
William Alexander Lindsay, K.C., Windsor Herald; John Dowden,
D.D., LL.D.; and John Maitland Thomson, LL.D., eds., Charters,
Bulls and Other Documents relating to the Abbey of Inchaffray
(Edinburgh: T. and A. Constable, 1908 - Scottish History
Society, 3rd Series, Vol. 56), pp. lxvii-lxix.


[4] Lindsay, ibid., p. lxvi.


[5] Burns, ibid., p. 44.


* John P. Ravilious


.