Re: Eudes la Zouche, senior and junior: a conjecture

Dear Douglas,

Thank you for replying. Sorry, but I am not certain which is your hypothesis
concerning Eudo. Is it the one posted by John?

You may have noticed in some of my posts that I study the Viponts and one
Ivo[in various forms], has not been, to my current knowledge, referred to
as Ivonet or Eudo, so I have been puzzled by the Knights reference to Eudo
la Zouche as Ivo or Ivonet. To be certain, we should see a primary reference
using the name Ivonet as Eudo la Zouche. That said, I would not consider
Ivonet to be a reference to a younger Eudo.

My question concerning Eudo's inheritance, I think, pivotal to a conclusion
about whether one or two existed.

1225 King Henry gave Beeston to Prince Edward.
Chester and Beeston were de Lacy strongholds and in 1240, John de Lacy was
governor of Chester and Beeston Castles.
1261 Monies from the Exchequer for Alan la Zusche, 50 marks, Eudo la Zusche,
30 marks and William la Zusche, 40 marks---all brothers, I believe.
1262--Chester, Beston and Shotwik, to Eudo la Zuche[I] brother of the said
Alan, without delay to keep in the name of the said Alan,justice of the
forest on this side Trent, until his arrival......
1263 William la Zuche apptd. justice of Chester by King.

How did the la Zouche family come into possession? It is implied that Alan
and the older Eudo simply held them.

I have found corroboration for William la Zuche, son of Alan in 1268. (CPR
We can trace the lands Elena de Quincy gave her son Oliver.
The confirmation to Maiden Bradley confirms Roger as the son of Alan.
However, I, as yet, have found no reference naming Eudo as the son of Alan
and Elena.

From: "Douglas Richardson" <royalancestry@xxxxxxx>
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: Eudes la Zouche, senior and junior: a conjecture
Date: Mon, 19, 2006, 10:03 AM

Dear Patricia ~

Regarding my proposed two Eudes la Zouche scenario, I note that the
book, Knights of Edward I, by Moor refers to Eudes la Zouche by various
forms of his given name. One of these forms is Ivonet. Moor does not
give the the date of the Ivonet form. However, my impression is that
Ivonet would be a reference to a young man named Eudes, aged 20 years
or younger. Over the years, I've seen stray references to Robinet for
a young Robert, and Colette for a young Nichole. If the reference to
Ivonet dates from the 1260's or later, then I should think that we
would have evidence that there was a younger Eudes living at the same
time as an older Eudes already in the records. If the reference to
Ivonet is late enough, this would be an easy way to establish if there
was one or two Eudes la Zouches in this time period. I doubt an older
man named Eudes would be addressed as Ivonet.

If there were two Eudes la Zouches, I would place the younger one as a
son of Alan la Zouche and his wife, Ellen de Quincy. The younger Eudes
la Zouche would be the individual who married Milicent de Cantelowe.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: www. royalancestry. net

"Patricia Junkin" wrote:
Hopefully, this tag line will illicit some interest in re-visiting the

Could anyone provide answers to the following .

Has anyone found
1)an IPM for Eudo who died in 1279,
2) a reference to him as the son of Alan and Elena, or
3) the inheritance of land in the line of Alan and Elena?

The following from Knights

Zouche, Sr Eudo la, Kt. (Eoun, Youn, Ivo, Ivonet).
Grant of 30 m. p.a. till K. provide more 27 Ap. 1261.
Livery to him Chester Beeston, and Shotwick Cas. of P. Edw. to keep and
defend, 26 Dec. 1262.
Livery to him and w. Milicent, sis. coh. of Geo. de Cantilupo: manors
late of said George at Eyton, Houton in Beds., Haringworth, Beruby, Rowell,
and Bolewik, Northants., Bridgewater and Edenworth, Som., Calston,
Bridmerston, Roele, and Calne, Wilts., Corneworthy, Dartmouth, and Totness,
Devon, Moles-Bracy, Salop, Stok St. Edwald, Dors., Hamme, Bucks., Byngele,
Yorks., Baseford, Notts., and Hereford,
1 Mar. (C.R.and F.R.), with their share of his lands in Ireland 30 May 1274
(F.R.), and in Craudon Manor and rents at Newbury, Spenhamland, and
Wodespene Manors, Berks.,

3 June 1275 Grant to him and Milicent forfeiture in their ports so long as
K. receives custom on wool and hides exported 16 Nov. 1275 (P.R.). Sumd to
serve agst. Welsh, he acknowledges 1-1/2 Fee for Milicent, and
will serve in person with a serjeant, 1 Jy. 1277 (P.W.). He and Millicent
nominate attorneys in Ireland 14 June 1278, and have Protection there 28 Ap.
1279 (P.R.). He is dead 25 June 1279. She is dead 7 Jan. 1290, leaving s.
h. William la Z. (F.R.).

Since Milicent's IPM she is styled as Milicent Montaldt and names HER heir
as William b. 1273-6 and the majority of the lands listed here were hers, is
it possible Eudo named another heir if his IPM exists?

I am searching for a plausible, if there is a plausible, answer to the
question of the two Eudos.

Zouche of Haryngsworth XII/2 p. 937. CP
Eon? la Zouche, yr. br. of Alan la Zouche (d. 1270) of Ashby, co. Leistr'
&c. being sons of Rogr la Zouche of the same by his wife Margaret,
1) brought the treasure of Ireland to the treasurer of New Temple, London,
Sep. 1251;
2) ?In July 1253 he was granted the marriage of Agatha, 6th daughter of
William de Ferrers, 5th earl of Derby, who was to be deliverd to him, 26
Feb. 1253/4.One Eudo was certainly an adult by 1253 when he is granted the
marriage of Agatha de Ferrariis provided Eudo give the king 150 marks and if
he have not the said marriage, he shall be quit of the said 100l. He chooses
not to marry Agatha and Agnes de Vescy is called upon to deliver her to Hugh
son of Ralph de Mortimer in 1255. (CPR H3)
3)He had protection, going with the Queen to the King is Gascony, 3 May 1254
4) witnessed charters of Prince Edward (at Southwark) 24 Mar., and (at
Lambeth) 28 Dec. 1257,
5) granted a pension of 30 marks a year, 27 Apr. 1261

Would a young man have been given a pension or was this simply a provision
following distinguished service?

Milicent Cantilupe had probably married John Monte Alto by 1255 and while
some may suggest that her when "19 hides were assigned to Sir William de
Cantilupo to John de Montealto, with his daughter" it may have been a
promise of a marriage, in regard to property in Bingley: Elienora presedicta
tenet eas de Milisanta de Monte Alto matre sua, NOT ZOUCHE.

We must also explain Henry de la Zouche,clerk, John and Thomas de la Zuche.

Thank you in advance for observations.