Re: SP Correction: Sir William Douglas and his Lindsay wife [II of II]
- From: Therav3@xxxxxxx
- Date: Sun, 14 May 2006 00:25:09 +0000 (UTC)
Saturday, 13 May, 2006
Dear Will, Alex, et al.,
You had written:
(Will)
For some reason, I had, using old messages, determined that Patrick, Lord
Graham was born 1416/8, and his father Alexander Graham was born 1399/1401
If I can re-figure out, how I figured that out.... then I would suggest that
Christian Erskine is made too old here by a bit. I suppose it's possible
that
a 20 year old girl is married to an infant, but as long as we're guessing,
I'd prefer her to be a bit older, say 1410/20 ish.
Will
=======================
(Alex)
Those dates seem to fit in the pretty tight chronology of the Grahams,
BUT in 1424 Patrick later Ist Lord Graham was infeft in the lands on
his grandfather's death. This would normally suggest that he was of
age. He died after 1466 and his widow married William Charteris of
Kinfauns. I don't have a genealogy of that family, but given that Lord
Graham must have been born in the early 1400s, she would probably have
been too old to bear Charteris children, even if he was born as late as
1418. His father Alexander died vita patris, the last reference to him
is a charter of 14 March 1415/16.
===========================
I hadn't looked at the Graham-Erskine issue too closely, but the one
descent from the marriage of Patrick, Lord Graham and Christian that
appears thoroughly valid is through their daughter Elizabeth, who m.
William Livingston of Kilsyth. The SP article on Livingston says, of a
previous controversy re: the wife of William (slain at Flodden in 1513):
' Two entries in the Stirling MS. Protocols seem to settle
the question. The first is the record of an agreement
between Thomas, Lord Erskine, and Christina, Lady Graham, on
the one hand, and Edward Livingston of Balcastell, on the
other, for the marriage of William Livingston, son and heir-
apparent of the said Edward, and Elizabeth Graham, daughter
of the said Christina, dated 19 December 1480. That this
contemplated marriage took place, and that the relationship
between Lord Erskine and Lady Graham was that of brother and
sister, is proved by a later deed, 1 October 1482, which
bears that in prosecuting a brief of inquest purchased by
William Livingston, son and heir of the late Edward Livingston
of Balcastell, anent the lands of Castletown, etc., the
procurator of the said William alleged that Lord Erskine
(who was Sheriff of Stirlingshire) should not be a judge
in serving of the said brief, because he was suspect, the
said William having espoused the daughter of his sister. '
[SP V:186]
What I see that sticks out like a sore thumb: Elizabeth m. William
Livingston in 1480, but her siblings William and Janet were married
prior to 1460, and ca 16 June 1455 [dated of bond of relief for her
tocher], respectively. It would appear most likely that Christian
Erskine was born late in the marriage of Sir Robert Erskine and
Elizabeth Lindsay, and was possibly a second wife of Patrick, Lord
Graham. I am not aware of any other alleged wife of Patrick, so this
might be another hunt for a missing spouse, or a case of extended
child-bearing.
Cheers,
John
.
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