Re: King's Kinsfolk: King Charles V of France & Jean de Craon, Archbishop of Rheims


Douglas Richardson wrote:
Dear Newsgroup ~

Going through the prodigious works of the Breton historian, Morice,
I've noticed a few references to king's kinsfolk. One of them is King
Charles V of France's reference to his councillor, Jean de Craon,
Archbishop of Reims, as his "cousin" in a document dated 1364
[Reference: Morice, Memoires pour Servir de Preuves a l'Hist. de
Bretagne 1 (1742): 1584-1585].

King Charles V of France and Archbishop Craon were related in the 5th
and 5th degrees of kinship (or by modern parlance, 4th cousins), by
virtue of their common descent from Robert III, Count of Dreux (died
1234):

l. Robert III, Count of Dreux, died 1234.
2. Yolande de Dreux, married Hugues IV, Duke of Burgundy.
3. Robert II, Duke of Burgundy.
4. Jeanne of Burgundy, married Philippe VI, King of France.
5. Jean II, King of France.
6. Charles V, King of France.

l. Robert III, Count of Dreux, died 1234.
2. Jean I, Count of Dreux & Braine.
3. Robert IV, Count of Dreux & Braine.
4. Jeanne de Dreux, married Jean IV, Count of Roucy.
5. Beatrix de Roucy, married Aimery III de Craon.
6. Jean de Craon, Archbishop of Reims.

So far, it seems that the French pattern of acknowledging kinship is
quite similar to the English pattern, albeit a bit less frequently.

To the Newsgroup:

Again, Richardson has given us a statement of kinship among the French
nobiliy.

Is the fact of this kinship a new discovery? No. Anybody with an
internet connection could have "discovered" it.

Is it the fact that King Charles V 's acknowledgement of kinship is
noteworthy? We are not informed as to whether any French king's
acknowledgement of kinship with his councillors is noteworthy; or
whether it is noteworthy that Charles V did so. We are not told who
Charles V's councillors were, or how many were known by Charles V to be
kinsmen, or how many of them were so acknowledged.

We do get a hint, for Richardson says "it seems that the French
pattern of acknowledging kinship is quite similar to the English
pattern, albeit a bit less frequently."

Here we get the stuff of a serious, systematic study. We have a
"French pattern."

We all know that a pattern cannot be determined by connecting two dots.
A pattern is defined (using the most appropriate definition for this
usage) as "a representative sample of the whole."

Is Richardson compiling a representative sample of the whole of the
councillors of Charles V in order to determine a pattern?

More interesting: has he compiled a representative sample of
councillors of English kings (and their kinship with the king) and
found a pattern for comparison with the French pattern?

He says he has a French pattern, and an English pattern, and somehow
something is less frequent (it doesn't quite parse). We should hope and
expect a revelation: an exposition of both of these patterns and some
means of comparing them, especially a means of measuring frequency of
something.

By the way, Richardson seems to have learned a new word: "prodigious."
He has been going through the "prodigious works of the Breton
historian, Morice."

Unfortunately the context of his use of "prodigious" is such that we
do not know what he means.

Are the works of Morice so great in size or force or extent as to
elicit awe?

Or, are they of momentous or ominous significance?

Or, considering the the historical context of Richarson's use of the
word, he means strange, wonderful, or marvelous.

At any rate, we should congratulate Richardson for trying, albeit with
a fumbling effort.

CED


Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: www.royalancestry.net

.

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