Re: The parentage of Orm Fitz Ketel (living 1094)

Dear Will
"1005-27 Jul 1094" were the supposed birth and death dates for Roger de
Montgomery, father of Roger de Poictu.
The "about 1064" birthdate for the younger Roger comes from a "tree" I
discovered in New Zealand in 1990 about the de Betham family of Westmorland.
Below are the notes I have for the younger Roger, taken from various places.
Merilyn
"For family help in conquering England, William I gave Roger of Poitou the
land between the Ribble and the Mersey, Lonsdale, Cartmel and Furness. In
his turn Roger rewarded his most eminent soldiers with baronies for which
they paid him military service. (page 14 of a History of Lancashire : J.J.
Bagley)
About 1072, after the 1069 rebellion in the north had been mercilessly
suppressed, William the Conqueror added Amounderness and the land between
the Ribble and the Mersey to other lands already possessed by young Roger of
Poitou. By 1086, for reasons that are not clear, the crown had resumed
administration of the land between the Ribble and the Mersey, but two years
later, as part of his plan for strengthening the north-west against the
Scots, the new King, William Rufus, united under Roger's control Furness,
Cartmell, Lonsdale, Amounderness and the land between the Ribble and the
Mersey. Since the main invasion route from Scotland came round the
Cumberland coast and across the sands of Morecambe Bay, it was logical to
give the lord of Lancaster control of Cartmell and Furness. Roger did his
military work well. By 1092 his forces controlled the border country round
Solway Firth, and to consolidate their position were building Carlisle
Castle. Roger was also giving some unity to the future county, Lancashire,
by building a castle and priory at Lancaster and by creating military fiefs
such as the baronies of Manchester, Warrington, Penwortham and Widnes. The
honour of Lancaster which Roger possessed included several estates in other
parts of England and the old Northumbrian border along the Ribble valley
still had much meaning for many northerners including the Scots. (History of
Lancashire : J.J. Bagley)
Recent changes in tenure recorded in Domesday Book suggests that the grants
of some of these northern lordships came relatively late in the reign. Roger
the Poitevin, indeed, can scarcely have been old enough to carry conquest
into a disturbed region before about 1080 (Anglo-Norman England 1066-1166 :
Marjorie Chibnall)
In 1094 Roger encouraged the abbot of the Benedictine abbey of St. Martin at
Seez in Normandy to send a handful of monks to found a daughter house at
Lancaster. Roger endowed this priory handsomely. He gave it part of the
township of Lancaster, several small estates in Lonsdale and Amounderness
and the revenues of a dozen churches in Lancashire and the Midlands.
(History of Lancashire : J.J. Bagley)
In 1090 he fought with his brother, Robert de Belleme against Hugh de
Grentemesnil, but when he and his brother sided with Duke Robert of Normandy
against Duke Robert's brother, Henry I of England in 1102 he was deprived of
his earldom and expelled from England. On his expulsion from England, Roger
retired to the castle of Charroux in the county of La Marche-Limousine
having succeeded to the title of Count of La Marche on the death of his
brother-in-law."

-------Original Message-------

From: WJhonson@xxxxxxx
Date: 12/13/05 09:53:13
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: The parentage of Orm Fitz Ketel (living 1094)

In a message dated 12/10/05 3:10:12 PM Pacific Standard Time,
pedricks@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx writes:

<< It was not Roger II de Montgomery, 1005-27 Jul 1094 who was Count of
Poitou
but his son Roger de Poictu, Earl of Lancaster who was born about 1064 and
whose wife was Almodis, Countess of Marche. That is, if "Poitou" and
Poictu
are the same name. >>

What do these years above "1005-27" represent? And how did you arrive at
the
"about 1064" birth year for Roger?
Thanks
Will Johnson


.

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