Re: Patrick Dunbar / Agnes Randolph

Dear Will,

The Earl Patrick conjectured as husband of Ermengarde (de Soulis)
is the one who allegedly (1) was born say 1275, and (2) who d. ca.
1320/1324.

See the 'detailed' pedigree of descendants of Alexander II, king
of Scots as presently conjectured (illegitimate descents only).

Cheers,

John


1 Alexander II of Scotland
----------------------------------------
Birth: 24 Aug 1198[1],[2]
Death: 8 Jul 1249, Kerrera[2]
Occ: King of Scots 1214-1249
Father: William 'the Lion' of Scotland (1143-1214)
Mother: Ermengarde de Beaumont (-1233)

Spouse: NN [not married]

Children: Ermengarde (-<1241)
Margery

Other Spouses Joan of England, Marie de Coucy


1.1 Ermengarde of Scotland
----------------------------------------
Death: bef 1241[3]

illegitimate daughter

' Ermengardis, filie domini mei Regis Alexandri ', named in grant
of Sir Alexander de Stirling, 1240 [Red Book of Menteith II:212,
no. 5[3] ]


1.2 Margery of Scotland
----------------------------------------

illegitimate daughter

' ROBERT, LORD ABBOT OF DUNFERMLINE, RESIGNED (A.D. 1251).
-The Lord Abbot of Dunfermline appears to have been "implicated in
the plot of trying to get the *** daughter of King Alexander
II., the wife of Alan Durward, Justiciar of Scotland, legitimized,
that she might succeed to the throne, in the event of the death of
the boy-King, Alexander III." Feeling that he had done wrong, and
having had some misunderstanding with the monks, he resigned his
office of Lord Abbot of Dunfermline, and also his seals of office
as Lord Chancellor of Scotland, and retired to Newbottle, where he
assumed the attire and position of a monk of that Abbey. About
the year 1269 he was elected Abbot of Melrose, and died in 1273.
(Fordun ii. 68, 216; Chron. Mel. P. 151, 191, 216; Morton's An.
Tev. P. 226.) '[4]

cf. R. Borthwick, <Re: Marjorie, Natural Daughter of Alexander
II of Scotland>[5]

Spouse: Alan Durward

Children: Ermengarde


1.2.1 Ermengarde Durward[5]
----------------------------------------

cf. R. Borthwick, <Re: Marjorie, Natural Daughter of Alexander
II of Scotland>[5]

Spouse: William de Soulis
Father: Nicholas de Soulis (-1264)
Mother: Anora de Normanville

Children: Nicholas (-1296)
Ermengarde


1.2.1.1 Nicholas de Soulis
----------------------------------------
Death: 1296[5]

heir of his father

claimant to the Scots crown based on his descent from King
Alexander II, 1291

' Soules, Dominus Nicholaus de (miles), (Nicol de Soules,
chiualer). ' - swore allegiance to King Edward I at Berwick,
1291 [Ragman Roll[6] ]


1.2.1.2 Ermengarde (de Soulis ?)
----------------------------------------

identification and parentage conjectured by Andrew MacEwen[7]

re: her husband:
Earl of March

'Patrike de Dunebarre', knight, serving with the army of King
Edward I in Scotland
fought at the Battle of Falkirk, 22 July 1298 together with his father
: his arms are recorded as
' Gules a lion rampant a bordure argent semy of
cinquefoils of the field a label of three points azure'
(Falkirk Roll H36[8])
[the label was a difference, as his father the Earl was
then alive: his arms - Gules, a lion rampant - are noted
in the roll as ' les armes le Counte patrike ' ]

supporter of the English position in Scotland (opposed by his
wife); received Edward II after his defeat at Bannockburn,
25 June 1314 - permitted his departure from Dunbar by
ship (Barrow p. 330[9])

entered the peace of King Robert - *
Surety of the Arbroath Declaration, 6 April 1320 (Barrow pp. 424-8)[9]

* this may actually have been his son.

Spouse: Patrick of Dunbar
Birth: ca 1275[10],[11]
Father: Patrick of Dunbar, earl of March (<1242-1308)
Mother: Marjory Comyn
Marr: bef 1303[12]

Children: Patrick, earl of March (-1368)


1. Andrew B. W. MacEwen, "A Clarification of the Dunbar Pedigree,"
The Genealogist, Vol. 9, No. 2, 1991, pp. 229-241, cites Joseph
Stevenson, ed., Cronica de Mailros, E Codice Unico in Bibliotheca
Cottoniana Servato (Edinburgh, 1835), and other sources.
2. Douglas Richardson, "Plantagenet," Jan 20, 2003, email
royalancestry@xxxxxxxx
3. William Fraser, "The Red Book of Menteith," Edinburgh: 1880,
.pdf image files provided by Genealogy.com www.genealogy.com,
history and evidences concerning the Earls and Earldom of Mentieth.
4. Ebenezer Henderson, LL.D, "The Annals of Dunfermline and Vicinity,
from the Earliest Authentic Period to the Present Time, A.D.
1069 - 1878," Glasgow: John Tweed, 1879, text available courtesy
of Electric Scotland,
http://www.electricscotland.com/history/dunfermline/
5. Richard Borthwick, "Marjorie, Natural Daughter of Alexander II
of Scotland," Society of Medieval Genealogy (@rootsweb.com),
8 Nov 1999 (GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@xxxxxxxxxxxx).
6. "Clan Stirling,"
http://www.clanstirling.org/uploads/ragmanrolls.pdf
provides .pdf file of the names of those who swore allegiance
to Edward I of England at Berwick, 1296 (the 'Ragman Rolls').
7. Andrew B. W. MacEwen, "telephone conference re: (1) Agnes, wife
of Sir Patrick Hepburn," (2) Ermengarde, wife of Patrick, Earl
of Dunbar, and other matters, 11 May 2005, notes, library of
John P. Ravilious.
8. Brian Timms, "The Falkirk Roll," an occasional roll of arms of
those having fought at the Battle of Falkirk, July 1298,
http://www.briantimms.com/rolls/falkirkH.html
This is an occasional roll, listing those present at the
battle of Falkirk, which was fought on 22 July 1298, when the
forces of Edward I defeated a Scottish army under
William Wallace. It is accepted that the roll was composed
shortly afterwards. The original blazon is in the Anglo-Norman
dialect, from a copy of the roll made by Robert Glover, c1585.
The source of this blazon is Gerard J Brault, Rolls of Arms of
Edward I, Society of Antiquaries, London, 1996.
9. G. W. S. Barrow, "Robert Bruce and the Community of the Realm of
Scotland," Edinburgh University Press, 1976 (2nd ed.).
10. Andrew B. W. MacEwen, "telephone conference re: (1) Patrick,
[8th] Earl of Dunbar," and (2) the ancestry of George, Earl of
Dunbar (fl. 1340-1420), and other matters, 4 August 2005, notes,
library of John P. Ravilious.
11. John P. Ravilious, "Dunbar dilemmas: Patrick, [8th] Earl of
Dunbar," 4 August 2005, GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@xxxxxxxxxxxx, re: evidence
from research of Andrew B. W. MacEwen concerning Patrick,
[8th] Earl of Dunbar [fl. ca. 1275 - ].
12. Sir James Balfour Paul, ed., "The Scots Peerage," Edinburgh:
David Douglas, 1904-1914 (9 volumes).



WJhonson@xxxxxxx wrote:
> In a message dated 11/19/05 5:48:33 AM Pacific Standard Time, therav3@xxxxxxx
> writes:
>
> << Spouse: Alan Durward
>
> Children: Ermengarde, m. William de Soulis [DESCENDANTS] >>
>

>>>>>>>>>>> SNIP <<<<<<<<<<<<<

>
> Which Earl Patrick of Dunbar is she supposed to have married ?
> The one who died 1320/4 ? The one who died 1308 maybe ?
> maybe even the one who died 1289 ..... now wouldn't that be interesting.
>
> Will Johnson

.