Re: Gospatric Fitz Orm's mother, Gravelda of Dunbar

Dear Dix ~

Thank you for posting this information from your notes of Dr.
Keats-Rohan. Much appreciated.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: www.royalancestry.net

FDP527@xxxxxxx wrote:
> Douglas Richardson Nov 28, 9:41 pm Subject: Re: Gospatric Fitz Orm's
> mother, Gravelda of Dunbar wrote:
>
> <<At this point, I'd very much like to hear from someone as to what Dr.
> Katherine Keats-Rohan has to say about these people in her book,
> Domesday Descendants. If someone has a copy of Keats-Rohan's book, I'd
> appreciate it greatly if they would post the information regarding
> these families here on the newsgroup. I believe it's time we heard
> from Dr. Keats-Rohan.>>
>
> Dear Douglas:
>
> I post below all of what Keats-Rohan has to say on the Taillebois and
> Lancaster decent that I was able to copy a number of months ago. This
> was before I was concerned about the Engaine family so I don?t know if
> she covered them. I no longer have access to the book.
>
> In my message FDP...@xxxxxxx Nov 27, 6:36 pm I posted:
>
> In her book, ?DOMESDAY DESCENDANTS: PROSOPOGRAPHY OF PERSONS OCCURRING
> IN ENGLISH DOCUMENTS 1066-1166; II. Pipe Rolls to Cartae Baronum;? K.
> S. B. Keats-Rohan, THE BOYDELL PRESS, she provides the following chart
> along with biographies of the individuals. This construction differs
> from most accepted lines in the literature, and is argued against by
> some of the ?experts? of soc.genealogy.medieval.
>
> *K. S. B. Keats-Rohan?s Chart: The family of Lancaster or Taillebois
>
> Ivo m. (2)
> Taillebois Lucy dau. Of
> d. 1093 m. (1) Turold
> N.N.
> I
> Beatrice d. m. (2)
> by1121 m. (1) Ribald fl.
> Eldred 1086
> ________I_______ _______
> I___________________
> I I I
> I I I
> Ketel Godith Ralph
> Hervey Rainald William
> m. m. Taillebois
> Christina Gilbert of m.
> I Lancaster Agnes de
> I I Brus
> I I
> ___ I____ I
> I I I
> Orm William William of m. (2)
> I Lancaster or Gundrada of
> I Taillebois Warwick
> I fl. 1120-1170
> I m. (1) N. N.
> I I_____________
> I I I
> Gospatric Avice m. William II
> William II Peverel d. 1184 *
>
> * IVO DE TAILLEBOIS: Ivo Taillebois, probably brother of Ralph
> Taillebois, a sheriff of Bedfordshire who was dead by 1086, was a
> prominent administrator throughout the reign of William I and well into
> that of William II. He appears to have been twice married since he was
> ancestor of the English family surnamed 'of Lancaster' or Taillebois
> who descended from the thegn Eldred, alive in 1086. In 1093 he can be
> seen to have had a daughter Beatrice, then married to Ribald of
> Richmond. She was dead in 1121, when Ivo's widow Lucy was married to
> her third husband. Lucy and Beatrice, probably widow of Eldred before
> marriage to Ribald, were contemporaries, so Lucy must have been Ivo's
> second wife. She was the daughter of Ivo's predecessor as sheriff of
> Lincoln, Turold, who was probably a Norman. Her mother undoubtedly had
> English ancestry since she was the daughter of William Malet, a sheriff
> of York who seems to have had English maternal antecedents.* Source:
> DOMESDAY DESCENDANTS; by K. S. B. Keats-Rohan, page 35
>
> *TAILLEBOIS, BEATRIX: Daughter of Ivo Taillebois (q.v.) and his unknown
> first wife. Clay thought Beatrice was probably illegitimate (EYC, v,
> 291), because none of Ivo's property passed to Ribald with his wife
> Beatrice. Ivo's second wife Lucy was an important heiress whose
> inheritance formed the basis of the land Ivo held in Domesday Book This
> fief, the honour of Bolingbroke, was inherited by the two sons of
> Lucy's subsequent marriages, whereas Ivo's own barony of Kendal,
> granted after 1086 went (possibly) to Ketel son of Eldred and then to
> Ketel?s nephew William fitz Gilbert of Lancaster, surnamed Taillebois
> (Sanders, 56). In the late twelfth century the writer Peter of Blois
> claimed that Ivo had had a sole daughter, ?nobly married? Defective
> genealogies, in the Cockersand Cartulary and the Register of St Mary's
> York (Cockersand Cart., ii, pp. 305-8) made William a descendant of
> Eldred and Ivo Taillebois, who must have been father of Eldred's wife.
> Beatrice is known to have married Ribald, half-brother of the
> Conqueror's Breton cousin Count Alan before 1093; Monasticon
> Anglicanum. III, p. 553 no. xx. She was dead by c 1121 at the time of
> a gift to St Mary's by Ribald and their son Ralph Taillebois: Given
> that Ketel Fitz Eldred, his nephew William of Lancaster, and Ralph
> fitz Ribald, were all active c.1120, .just a few years before Ivo?s
> widow buried her third husband, one can conclude that Beatrice was a
> legitimate heir of Ivo by a wife previous to Lucy, who was Beatrice's
> contemporary, and that she was first the wife of the Englishman Eldred
> and subsequently the wife of Ribald. For the descendants of Beatrice
> and Ribald see Rev. H. C. Fitz Herbert An original pedigree ofTailbois
> and Neville', The Genealogist, ns iii, 31. Clay. Early Yorkshire
> Charters (1936), V, no. 358.* Source: DOMESDAY DESCENDANTS; by K. S.
> B. Keats-Rohan, page 1121
>
> *FILIUS ELDRED, KETEL: Son of Eldred and a daughter of Ivo Taillcbois
> (q.v.), some of whose land in the barony of Kendal he inherited.
> Benefactor of the abbey of St Bees, founded 1120, to which he gave land
> in Morland and Workington (Register St Bees, pp. 233 -34, no. 212) with
> the assent of his wife Christiana and son William. Father also of Orm,
> whose son Gospatric was his eventual heir. His grant of land to St
> Leonard's, York, was confirmed by his sister's son William fitz Gilbert
> of Lancaster (q.v.). He died several years after 1120. G.
> Washington, ?The parentage of William de Lancaster, lord of Kendal',
> Transactions Cumberland & Westmorland Antiquarian & Archaeological
> Society 62 (1962). Dugdale, Monasticon Anglicanum, III, pp. 548-60,
> no. V.* Source: DOMESDAY DESCENDANTS; by K. S. B. Keats-Rohan, page
> 881
>
> In my message FDP...@xxxxxxx Nov 26, 9:21 pm I posted
>
> *DE LANCASTRIA, WILLELM FILIUS GILBERTI : William of Lancaster, also
> known as William Taillebois, son of Gilbert and Goditha, sister of
> Ketel son of Eldred. A defective genealogy in the Cockersand Cartulary
> (vol. II. pp. 305-8) made him great-grandson of Eldred and
> great-great-grandson of Ivo Taillebois, who was therefore father of
> Eldred's wife. In fact, a charter in which he made a grant to St
> Leonard's York also contained a confirmation of the gift of his
> maternal uncle ('avunculus') Ketcl fitz Eldred, thus establishing that
> he was grandson of Eldred. From this it can be inferred that he was a
> great-grandson of Ivo Taillebois, whose post-Domesday barony of Kendal
> he held. First occurs c.l120. In 1166 he held 2 fees de novo of Roger
> de Mowbray at Kendale and Lonsdale in Westmorland and Horton in
> Ribblesdale, Yorkshire. Twice married, secondly, by 1156, to Gundrada,
> widow or daughter of Roger, earl of Warwick (d. l153). Father of Jordan
> (d.v.p.), William II (d. l184), and Avice, second wife of William II
> Peverel of Nottingham and secondly wife of Richard de Morville (J.
> Green, 'Ranulf II and Lancashire', in Earldom of Chester and its
> Charters, ed. Thackeray, p. 107n.). G. Washington, 'The parentage of
> William de Lancaster, lord of Kendal', Transactions
> Cumberland & Westmorland Antiquarian & Archaeological Society 62
> (1962). Helwise, daughter and heiress of William II of Lancaster (d.
> 1184), married Gilbert, son of Roger fitz Reinfrid, who became lord of
> Kendal in Westmorland in her right (Sanders, 57). Cronnc/Davis, RRAN
> III, no. 337; Dugdale, Monuslicon Anglicanum, III, p. 577, no. III:
> Greenway, Charters of The Honour of Mowbray (1972), no. 370; F.
> Ragg.? Source: DOMESDAY DESCENDANTS; by K. S. B. Keats-Rohan, page 539
>
>
> In my post FDP...@xxxxxxx Nov 28, 2:51 pm Subject: Re: Gospatric Fitz
> Orm's mother, Gravelda of Dunbar
>
> *FILIUS ORM, GOSPATRIC: Son of Orm, son of Chetel son of Eldred, of
> Workington, Cumberland. Pipe Roll 4 Henry II, 120-cl; Pipe Roll 9 Henry
> II, 10-cl; Pipe Roll 10 Henry II, 2-cl; Pipe Roll 11 Henry II, 54-cl;
> Pipe Roll 12 Henry II, 88-cl;* Source: DOMESDAY DESCENDANTS; by K. S.
> B. Keats-Rohan, page # not copied
>
> In my post FDP...@xxxxxxx Nov 29, 9:54 am Subject: Re: Gilbert
> fitzReinfrid son
> and heir..Further..
>
> *DE LANCASTRIA, GILBERT: His son and successor William fitz Gilbert of
> Lancaster was nephew of an Englishman Ketel son of Eldred whose sister
> Godith was Gilbert's wife. His father is unknown. William occurs from
> c. 1120-70, G. Washington, 'The parentage of William de Lancaster, lord
> of Kendal'. Transactions Cumberland & Westmorland Antiquarian &
> Archaeological Society 62 (1962). Dugdale. Monuslicon Anglicanum,
> III, p. 577, no. III; Greenway, Charters of the Honour of Mowbrey
> (1972), no. 370; F. Ragg, Charter?s of St Peter's (St Leonard's
> Hospital, York', TCWAAS (1909), p. 237* Source: DOMESDAY DESCENDANTS;
> by K. S. B. Keats-Rohan, page 539.
>
>
> *DE LANCASTRIA, WILLELM FILIUS GILBERTI: William of Lancaster, also
> known as William Taillebois, son of Gilbert and Goditha, sister of
> Ketel son of Eldred. A defective genealogy in the Cockersand Cartulary
> (vol. II. pp. 305-8) made him great-grandson of Eldred and
> great-great-grandson of Ivo Taillebois, who was therefore father of
> Eldred's wife. In fact, a charter in which he made a grant to St
> Leonard's York also contained a confirmation of the gift of his
> maternal uncle ('avunculus') Ketcl fitz Eldred, thus establishing that
> he was grandson of Eldred. From this it can be inferred that he was a
> great-grandson of Ivo Taillebois, whose post-Domesday barony of Kendal
> he held. First occurs c.l120. In 1166 he held 2 fees de novo of Roger
> de Mowbray at Kendale and Lonsdale in Westmorland and Horton in
> Ribblesdale, Yorkshire. Twice married, secondly, by 1156, to Gundrada,
> widow or daughter of Roger, earl of Warwick (d. l153). Father of Jordan
> (d.v.p.), William II (d. l184), and Avice, second wife of William II
> Peverel of Nottingham and secondly wife of Richard de Morville (J.
> Green, 'Ranulf II and Lancashire', in Earldom of Chester and its
> Charters, ed. Thackeray, p. 107n.). G. Washington, 'The parentage of
> William de Lancaster, lord of Kendal', Transactions Cumberland &
> Westmorland Antiquarian & Archaeological Society 62 (1962). Helwise,
> daughter and heiress of William II of Lancaster (d. 1184), married
> Gilbert, son of Roger fitz Reinfrid, who became lord of Kendal in
> Westmorland in her right (Sanders, 57). Cronnc/Davis, RRAN III, no.
> 337; Dugdale, Monuslicon Anglicanum, III, p. 577, no. III: Greenway,
> Charters of The Honour of Mowbray (1972), no. 370; F. Ragg.*
> Source: DOMESDAY DESCENDANTS; by K. S. B. Keats-Rohan, page 539
>
> Lastly, after reviewing all I have and found this last note was not
> posted before:
>
> *DE WARENNE,GUNDREDA: Daughter of William II de Warenne. She married
> first Roger earl of Warwick (1119-53) by whom she had issue two sons
> and two daughters, and seconfly William fitz Gilbert of Lancaster, whom
> she married before 1156. Pipe Roll 4 Henry II, 145-rt; Pipe Roll 4
> Henry II, 185-wk; Pipe Roll 5 Henry II, 26-wk; Red Book of the
> Exchequuer, ed. Hall (1897), pp 324-27.* DOMESDAY DESCENDANTS; by K.
> S. B. Keats-Rohan, page 777.
>
> Hope this answers your request,
>
> Respectfully,
>
> Dix Preston

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