Re: Gospatric Fitz Orm's mother, Gravelda of Dunbar

Unfortunately in this reconstruction Douglas has done this more than once in
supplying arbitary dates to a woman who has her first child at an advanced
age. The focus has been so much on the early generations that it has slipped
under the radar of the discussion. Specfically I refer to (below):

"Douglas Richardson" <royalancestry@xxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:1133208984.496983.12590@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Dear MichaelAnne ~
>
<snip>
>
> Elsewhere, I've determined that Thomas, son of Gospatrick Fitz Orm, had
> a grandson, Michael de Furness, who was aged 6 in 1204, or born about
> 1198. Michael de Furness would, of course, be a great-grandson of
> Gospatrick Fitz Orm. Using the 85 year rule of thumb for three
> generations which I have employed in earlier posts, if we subtract 85
> years from 1198, we obtain an estimated birthdate for Gospatric Fitz
> Orm of circa 1113. We get a similar corresponding result in
> chronology for his son, Thomas Fitz Gospatric, when we subtract 85
> years from the approximate birthdate of his great-grandson, William de
> Furness, who I believe was born c. 1215-1219. 85 years substracted
> from c. 1215-1219 indicates an estimated birthdate of 1130/1134 for
> Thomas Fitz Gospatric.
><snip>>
> 3. Thomas Fitz Gospatric, born say 1130/5, died 1201, married Grace
> _____.
>
> 4. Aline Fitz Thomas, born say 1160/5, living 1219, married William de
> Furness (or Fleming), he was of age before 1164.
>
> 5. Michael de Furness, born about 1198 (aged 6 in 1204), died 1230/34.
>
> 6. William de Furness, born c. 1215/1219 (allegedly aged 14 at his
> father's death), living 1262.
<snip>

Alice/Ada/Aline de Workington also called Ada de Furness/Furneys in
contemporary sources (or FitzThomas as Douglas chooses to call her here and
not using her contemporary source name) would be 33-38 at the birth of her
eldest son Michael in 1198. However, it is also known that she had a
younger son Daniel who was born 1199-1204, which extends her age at his
birth to 39-44, but what is most disconcerting is that Douglas makes no
mention that Alice/Ada/Aline may have subsequently married William le
Boteler of Warrington (VCH Lancs VIII:300 footnote 69 citing Lancs. Inq. and
Extents I:198.; I would add that this source does not claim her as daughter
of generation 3) and to have been mother of his son Almeric (aka
Aumericus/Emery) born 1210-1218 (Baines IV:401, etc.). If valid, this would
make Alice/Ada/Aline as old as 58 at birth of Almeric with Douglas'
chronology. I would add that VCH Lancs VIII: 300 footnote 73 states that in
a pleading in the Furness Couch, II.:466 the heirs of William le Fleming
appear to be called his grandchildren. This shows how careful we muct be in
making all this try to fit when you have two contemporary sources which give
conflicting placements.

Even if there was no evidence of a subsequent marriage for Alice/Ada/Aline,
it is difficult to accept that she would give birth to her eldest child at
age 38 as suggested. This construction would also require 20 years of infant
mortality before the births of Michael and Daniel. Also as Michael and
Daniel were perhaps the two most common names among this family, it would be
hard to justify that there were previous male children who died as infants.
Certainly not impossible, but highly unlikely.

So here is a second woman in the same descent for whom a chronology is
proposed to give the desired result. I readily admit that I am a bit
uncomfortable with Alice/Alice/Ada being the mother of Almeric le Boteler
with any certainty, but I am even more uncomfortable with her first child
being born (followed by a second) at such an adavnced age in this proposed
scenario.

To be fair, I have also contacted MichaelAnne about the birthdate of 1155
for Ada/Alice/Aline in her article which makes her 42 at the birth of
Michael. Something seems quite wrong here.

HS



"Todd A. Farmerie" <farmerie@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:438cb518@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Douglas Richardson wrote:
>> Todd A. Farmerie wrote:
>>
>>>Douglas Richardson wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Using these records, the following chronology can be constructed which
>>>>harmonizes well with the facts as we have them:
>>>>
>>>>1. Gravelda (or Gurwelda, Gimilda) of Dunbar, born before 1075, minor
>>>>and unmarried at her father's death in 1075. She married Orm Fitz
>>>>Ketel, who I believe was an adult in 1094.
>>>>
>>>>2. Gospatric Fitz Orm, born say 1110, died c. 1177. He married Egliva
>>>>Engaine, daughter of Ranulph Engaine (living after 1122) and Ibrea (or
>>>>Ybri) de Trevers.
>>>
>>>
>>>Here we have it - _your_ chronology and she is in her late 30s when she
>>>has her oldest son. How often is that the case for a woman at this
>>>period?
>>
>> A point of clarification. You've stated above that Gospatric Fitz Orm
>> was Gravelda's "oldest son." (your words). As you are well aware, due
>> to the high infant mortality in the medieval time period, there is
>> often a big difference in age between "oldest son" and "oldest
>> surviving son." In this case, due to the lack of records, I think it
>> is best that we refer to Gospatric as Gravelda's oldest known surviving
>> son.
>
> Oh, right - she just had 15 years worth of infant mortality leading up to
> the son so important he was named after his maternal grandfather. You want
> it both ways - you want Gospatric to be named for his important
> grandfather, but you also want him to come after a string of sons who
> never left record.
>
> And now you just adjust the chronology to better match the theory, and
> surprise, the theory is consistent with the chronology.
>
>> Frankly, given the obvious lacuna in the records from 1075 to 1150, I
>> think we're doing very good to have the facts we do. I'm sure you
>> agree.
>
> And one of these facts is that Gospatric calls Ebrea "my mother". In any
> other context you would be parading this about as absolute evidence, but
> here, being invested in the alternative, you ad hoc it out of
> consideration. This is not just a fact, it is THE paramount piece of
> evidence - it trumps chronology and it trumps inheritance. You dismiss it
> out of hand as meaning mother-in-law without providing any examples from
> this period and region and in similar context that show "my mother" was in
> use as such - where "X my wife and Y my mother" actually means "X my wife
> and Y _my wife's_ mother". You make a huge deal about the use of ejus in
> an ambiguous context in one charter, but are perfectly willing to ignore
> that "Ebrea mater ejus" would have expressed your meaning here, but it
> wasn't used - _my_ mother was. All of these chronological dances based on
> when people four generations later are supposed to have been born are just
> fancy ways of ducking the main issue. That is, why "my mother" should be
> taken as meaning anything other than "my mother"? If he really called her
> his mother, then all arguments based on chronological likelihoods become
> pointless (unless they prove the stated relationship impossible, which
> they do not).
>
> taf


.

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