Re: Gospatric Fitz Orm's mother, Gravelda of Dunbar

FDP527@xxxxxxx wrote:

DOUGLAS HAS IT EXACTLY CORRECT.

On what basis are you so adamant that this is the case? You have already said you don't read Latin, so it can't be that (the primary basis of his dismissal of Ms. Guido's argument). Is it simply because he agrees with your reconstruction?


In my message 42. FDP...@xxxxxxx  Nov 26, 4:50 pm;  Subject: Re:
Gilbert fitzReinfrid son and heir..Further.. I presented a Theory of
the descendants of Eldred. In this construct, I had Gospatric FitzOrm
as follows:

Descendants of Eldred of Northumbria

1. Eldred/Etheldred of Northumbria (approx b. 1018) alive 1086 d. bef
1093 [Keats-Rohan p. 1121] m. (1) Aldgytha/ Adgitha [ref 1] Eldred aka
Etret aka Ughtret and others

Again, to be cleared up. Eald-red is not the same as AEthel-red, from Ead-red and from Ucht-red. They share the same second element but not the first. Sometimes a scribe might get confused and use the wrong one by accident, but we need to be careful here, and not


In her message 37. Claudiu...@xxxxxxx   Nov 28, 12:12 pm  Subject: Re:
Gospatric Fitz Orm's mother, Gravelda of Dunbar she writes:

<<Gravilda was born before 1075 as her father Gospatric earl of
Northumberland
was dead in 1074. Symeon of Durham [Symeonis Dunelmensis Opera et
Collectanea, Vol. II, Surtees Society Publication, Andrews & Co.,
Durham,  1868, pp.
199] records that just before his death Gospatric was visited by  two
monks from
Jarrow abbey Aldwin and Turgot. Gospatric confessed his sins and  died
and was
buried in the porch of the church at Melrose. Symeon dates this to
1074 in
Vol. I, pp. 111 where he states that this trip took place from  Jarrow
to
Melrose. The confession was taken at Ubbanford [Norham].  So  the
latest birth date
for Gravilda was 1075.>>

This exactly what I documented in my second message. However, she leaps
45 years in accounting for Gospatric?s birth. I fear she has jumped a
generation to make a fit with her Eberia as mother of Gospatric theory.

No, she based her reconstruction on when Gospatric starts to appear in documents. This is at least as accurate a way (and if there is sufficient available documents, a more accurate means) than extrapolating from later or earlier generations, an approach which itself assumes genealogical connections.


I find all the messages in this thread provide plenty of
?documentation? but demonstrate a lot of confusion with individuals
playing ?my record is better than your record.? One needs to make a
serious look at chronology which I have humbly attempted to do.

And so has she, but the two of you have reached different conclusions - hou do you resolve this without simply stating "my chronology is better than yours"?

I go back to Douglas? message where he has it correct. 

Based on . . . his agreement with your reconstruction?

Elgiva/Egilina,
I wish those scribes would write correctly,

I am not sure this is a problems of scribes so much as of later people reading what they want to see into the document. Elgiva is a perfectly valid Anglo-Saxon name. Egelina a Norman one. It looks like someone is trying to force it to be something it is not.

is clearly Gospatric?s wife
and Ebrea/Ibria is clearly his mother-in-law.

This is far from clear, when Gospatric refers to her as "matre mea" - my mother. This is testimony that in any other context would require strong evidence to reject, but here seems not to because of the greater implications and vested interests.

Now I will concede that
the widow Ibria in her old age may have married Gospatric as his second 

(that she married Orm, not Gospatric, is the implication)

wife, but had no issue, and it is not unreasonable that a mother and
daughter would have a close relationship with a father and son.

This is not the issue at all - not whether Orm married her but that Gospatric called her "my mother". If you reject this direct statement, then there is no reason to consider or concede that Ibrea married into the family at all - based on the evidence at hand she cannot be viewed as Orm's wife without being Gospatric's mother, as the only evidence for the marriage is _that_ she was Gospatric's mother.

taf
.

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